Reproduction and Real Jaques of London Chess Set

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384828872364?hash=item59999696ac:g:QBwAAOSwcRRiVD2I

Early Jaques Staunton Chess Set with Original Registration Labels
 Up for sale .

@JoPublic …. I think I am slow to this party…

… am I correct in that the picture in 4799 is a picture of a piece produced by OS and not an old/antique piece. To date, I have been assuming most sets are reproductions of a style but this appears to be a specific replica of a specific set. I’m not explaining myself well … but for example, Fender guitars replicated Eric Clapton’s famous ‘Blackie’ guitar with all its nicks, scratches and nuances after Eric had played with it for many years ….
So is that what OS are doing here - replicating a specific, famous set with with its exact wear and tear marks … as opposed to simply reproducing a historical style as new.

Have I made any sense there… sorry if not …I’m finding it hard to explain what I mean ….

…. In effect, much more work goes into a replicating a specific set with all its dings, dents and wear marks, than simply reproducing a old style as new.

Whatever is going on here, the knight looks excellent and it’s great work! 

Looks good indeed, but is the tip of the ear missing?

Just seeing PowderDigit's input. If they can do this exact replicating that would mean giant leaps forward after a lot of misfortunate "antiquing" (if that is a real word). Would be really interesting and also dangerous. That knight looks genuinely 150 or so years old.

Hi, I recently inherited a chess set from my grandfather that was bought by his father during WW1. It is a Staunton Chess-Men Boxwood and Ebony 'J.A.Q.U.E.S London' set with all of its pieces, box and board.

At the moment, it is in the shop whilst I'm waiting to receive a quote on how much it would cost to get it refurbished. 

I only have photos of the damaged parts of the box, but I was wondering if someone could tell me exactly what kind of chess set it is (year) and how much it is worth.

The person that is going to repair it is also wondering what the plaque looked like that was on the top of the box and the lock so they can replicate it, as mine has fallen off and disappeared. If someone could send photos that would be great. I'll attach photos below.

You really shouldn't get it "refurbished" or do anything to it, whatsoever; it looks to be in great condition and, if it's a real antique Jaques, anything you do to try to improve it will probably just hurt its value. Any restoration (etc.) of antiques should be done extremely sparingly and only as determined/directed by an expert (e.g., Tim Millard); personally, I would only consider restoration in extreme cases (e.g., the top half of a piece is missing or something). I think patina and damage, like collar cracks, actually look great on old Jaques sets.

The person said they wanted to fix the crack on the top, fix the lock, the hinges, glue the felt back to the box (because it's falling off), create a new plaque to put on the top and fix the back of the box from falling off.

If doing all this would actually decrease the value of the chess set I don't want it done. It has a lot of sentimental value but I don't want to ruin a piece of history.

Would it be okay glue the back of the box in (so it doesn't fall out), repair the hinges, glue the felt back onto the box and re-align the lock? I'll send a photo of the lock. 

Anything you do will probably hurt the value, big time; it sounds like you're basically getting repairs done, which is probably a very bad move, especially if they're not being done by someone who is an expert in the restoration of antique Jaques items. Your box is actually in very good shape for an antique Jaques box (they're usually far more damaged). I have a red light filter on my computer at the moment so I can't see your photos very well, however, judging by the knights etc. I would guess it to be an 1850-60 period Jaques (probably 1855-60), which would be worth several thousand USD, at least. If you're not intending to sell the set, I would just leave it as is; if you're intent on "restoring" it in some way, I would speak with an expert (like Tim Millard, or some of the guys on this forum) and determine what to do, and who should do it (Tim uses a shop to repair his sets; there is Ron Fromkin; there is Alan Dewey; etc.); if you're intending to sell it, that's another conversation. If you're looking for a box just for storage purposes, I would just buy a new one or have one made, to store the pieces (and maybe the antique box, as well) in; this way you don't have to mess with the antique box.

Not intending to sell, but would like the box to be functional whilst retaining as much value as possible.

Would really like to have the hinges fixed, and have the back of the box repaired (glue).

How much would this hurt the value? Would it be in the $1000's?

Would also having the felt on the inside of the box glued back onto the box reduce the value massively as well?

Regarding the restorations, it's difficult to put an exact dollar number on the effects of X restoration; just understand that any "restoration" you do (or attempt) will most likely harm the value of the set, and probably significantly; this is the case with pretty much any antique/old collectible, and the rule of thumb is always "don't touch it!". I can tell you, for example, that restoring even one small section of a comic book page pretty much destroys the entire value of the comic book (CGC graders look for restoration and mark restored books as such, basically making the book worthless). If you really want to restore the box, you should speak with Tim Millard and ask him who he recommends to do the work, or contact Ron Fromkin or Alan Dewey and have them do the work; this way you can be sure your set is restored "properly."

Regarding the box, it makes a significant difference, for sure; sets with box are more valuable than sets without box, just like sets with box/key are more valuable than box/no key (most do not have the key). The box is too small to store the set well, so I wouldn't really concern yourself with the functionality of it; you would be better off buying a new large box (or having one made) that can fit the entire set standing upright; I can give you a few recommendations on this, if you want.

You should check out Tim's site: 

https://www.antiquechessshop.com/product-category/staunton/ 

https://www.antiquechessshop.com/product/

Beautiful set! I wouldn't necessarily restore anything even if home use is your intended purpose for the pieces and box. Get a bigger chess board though. If the king height is 4 inches or over, go for a 2.375 inch square board or thereabouts. At the moment, the pieces don't have room to breathe properly!

Many folks around here (that already talk to you) that have vast knowledge about these matters (Not me). I think you are getting good advice. In case you want a functional box, buy something new that does the job and keep the original box the way it is. Without use it would also not deteriorate any more.

Bigger board might be a good idea too, but a matter of taste. Your board is actually very nice.

Hummmmm. Sorry to be a party pooper. All we *know* from the attached photos is that the *BOX* is a Jaques Box, we have no idea if the pieces are since there are no photos of the various pieces. We also do not know anything about the King Ht; if it is weighted or not, etc. I would definitely have the set by Tim. My Spidy senses go off when someone asks about the "Value" of a set. IF, as stated, the set has Sentimental Value, and that he does NOT plan to sell it, then having the damn box ie. the hinges, lock, the felt reattached, etc. makes perfect sense since the purpose of the box is to protect the pieces. In the current state the piece are subject to being damaged because its container (ie box) is damaged. This could be a clever -- or maybe not clever -- forgery.

Assuming for the moment that the pieces are genuine Jaques pieces, *and* they are from a recognizable pattern  -- not a whole lot of random pieces thrown together but a complete set -- depending on the condition of the pieces, I probably would not store them in that ratty box, but rather buy a modern coffer and store them in that, to protect the pieces from further damage. 

Depending upon if this set is going to be used a lot or not, the pieces are going to take a beating if they remain in the current box. I agree with the person who stated that the pieces seem too big for the box and that is a red flag for me. I clearly would take the set to Tim and let him evaluate the set and confirm that the BOX *and* the PIECES are genuine Jaques. I would listen to Tim, or other experts, to see if a) the pieces need to be restored to any degree b) if the box needs to be fixed. To that end the box is worthless in its current condition -- it is just another BROKEN box even if it was made by Jaques. The PURPOSE of the box is to contain things, and if it is BROKEN, then its PURPOSE is defeated. ASSUMING that the BOX *and* the PIECES are GENUINE Jaques products, at the very least the box need to be repaired, the hinge either repaired or replaced, the felt removed and either reattached and/or replaced with NOS period felt, and the lock fixed and/or replaced and a new key added.  In the current condition the box is crap. 

As to "VALUE".... ASSUMING that the real VALUE of the set is to the OWNER of the set is SENTIMENTAL, not monetary, it makes good sense that the box be FIXED and the pieces be RESTORED if necessary, then the OP has a CLEAN set that has been handed down and something he can take pride in owning, not a bunch of broken crap, that someone wants to palm off to some fool to will pay a fortune to buy a bunch of broken crap because it has the name "Jaques" on it as though it were some magic talisman. 

What needs to happen NOW is for the OP to take that set -- Box and Pieces -- to Tim or another expert for an evaluation. In its current shape I'd simple sell that crap, and take the money and run.

@Azobobcat, although I agree about much of your post, I disagree about the condition and originality of the set. A close look at the foot of the king in the second picture (the one of the complete set) shows the beginning of the footmark on the white king. The label on the box dates the set quite early, from 1856-59 according to Dr. Fersht, and the shape of the bishop and king pretty much confirm that for me. We can determine it is a weighted set from the label, which says loaded on it. Many of the early sets were unweighted, and loading was optional, and a added charge. The only real damage that I see at first glance is four white pawns and two black pawns with chipped collars, and chipping to the black queens crown, so the set is hardly “crap” as you seem to think. The bishops are all undamaged, the kings have their crosses, so the set has been reasonably cared for over the years. A closer examination is in order… I would not be surprised to find a few cracked ebony pieces in the set. The pieces also fit the box quite well enough by the pictures. The boxes were never much larger than absolutely necessary. 

Since he is in New Zealand (according to his flag, anyway) it would be cost prohibitive to send the set off to Tim Millard to evaluate. Maybe someone in this group can recommend an appropriate expert in New Zealand or Australia.

If @A51x intends to keep the set as a family heirloom, a careful restoration would be in order, and certainly careful repairs to the box should not hurt the value at all. Tim Millard restores every set that comes through his shop, and it doesn’t seem to stop people from paying  a good price for his sets. The key here, of course, is *careful* and *professional* restoration. If he chooses to go this route, sending it to Ron Fromkin might be the cheapest shipping alternative if no one can be found in NZ. And finally, I would not be willing to hazard a guess as to value, since we don’t know whether the set is tournament or club size, and I haven’t seen it personally.

I’ve looked at and evaluated hundreds of Jaques sets, and have owned a dozen of all ages, so while not an “expert,” I think I can tell whether one deserves consideration or not. This one does.

A51x , That looks like a very nice set / can you post some more photos please ,

Any Jaques sets thats over 100 years old ,  would need some kind of restoration .

Just to clarify my comments around restoration; restoration to some degree is perfectly fine, but only when done by an expert/professional who works in the field. When I said restoration would probably only hurt the set, I was mostly referring to "restoration" attempts made by the owner or by someone who is not an expert/professional in the field. As I and madmac mentioned, almost every set that goes through Tim Millard is given some restoration, however, it is done very carefully/sparingly by experts; I would add to this that the "provenance" of any restoration work is important; buyers are much happier to know that a set was "properly" restored by Tim than it being restored by a random unknown shop.

Damn you have good eyes!! I still can not see the mark on the kings base/foot and I've looked for it. I totally missed the "loaded" or is it "leaded" regardless, totally missed it.  ASSUMING NOW that it is indeed a genuine Jaques set, it still vastly needs some TLC from a professional restorer along the lines of a Tim Millard, not some rank amateur. That set is too valuable for a DIY restoration. 

While I would surely get the box restored, assuming he gets the pieces restored as well, and assuming the OP plans to keep it in the family, probably the big change I would make would be to store the pieces in a modern coffer so as to protect the restored pieces. I would also see if I could find someone who could make a Brass Plaque ala HoS's.

Thanks for the sharp eyed catch.

Agree!! The problem with PAPER labels is they usually do not last -- they get torn, stained, worn out, etc. That was why when HoS offered their BRASS Plagues along with the Original Paper Label to go along with my Collector Series  4" King in Boxwood and Rosewood I got the brass Plaque which I carefully mounted on the inside of the coffer lid. Both the Brass Plaque and Paper Label show the  Entered Year,  The Number of the Set, as well as a brief description of the set (4", Boxwood and Rosewood). That makes the "provenance"  of the set EASY to trace. I seriously doubt Jaques, thought his sets would be around over 100+ years later and that "provenance"  would ever be an issue. Now we know better.