Reproduction and Real Jaques of London Chess Set

Polarchess.. The Dubrovnik set I have is every bit as good as the HOS set I have. The craftsmanship of both are A-1. Both sites offer excellant chess pieces. There is a new player in town & its called Chess Bazaar..! Less money for the same fine Craftsmanship & free shipping.! People just need to choose what sets they like. I am very aware that chess piece choice is a persnal decision.

I would like to address some of the questions above.

John C,

Prof Fersht does address marks in weights on Jaques sets in his second edition of his book. I corresponded with him on this at the time.

Jaques used a 4 pronged insertion tool which was stuck into the lead to hold it to enable the weights to be easily twisted into place. the marks on the weights are sometimes deep and other times not. Usually taking the form of 4 triangular indents.

Regarding the many slight differences in knight head design on Jaques sets and their reproductions.

Jaques were using the horses head from the Elgin Marbles from part of the Parthenon Frieze which had been brought back to London and put on display in 1816 ( some think this was an act of vandalism on the part of Lord Elgin). The horse in question is the one shown dasping for breath after pulling Selene's (moon godess) charriot across the sky.

Almost all subsequent depictions are variations of this head IMHO with alterations depending on the carver's hand, apart from the so called 'drop jaw' knights introduced for a short period 1855-60 or there about. Jaques then went back to the somewhat stylised version of the Selene knight.

The earliest knights heads had smooth cheeks, the horizontal ribbing of the cheeks being introduced later in the first year of production .Some chess dealers claim to see particular differences in style as the years progress and as one can assume that as time went on Jaques used several carvers who all brought their own particular take on the heads this is easily accounted for. We do not know the names of these carvers and calling them by the names of Famous chess players avails us nothing and is somewhat insulting to those fine working men who did the carving, no doubt under difficult conditions and for long hours and not very much pay.

Vik of chessbazaar is on the point of going into production with an 1849 4.4" set in boxwood and ebony, weighted and so on. He will also be introducing other sizes and knight head variations in the future. I have collaberated with him on this and am hoping these sets will become common in chess congresses and players homes in place of some of the fairly varied in quality sets offered by other reproduction set dealers.

Hi Alan and thanks for coming into the discussion.  Were you also consulting and had some say in this first 1849 set that will be released in 4.4" King?  Were there any jacques sets this large?  Thanks you for the lessons in Jacques sets, I love them.  Mike

@wiscmike, yes Jaques made sets in this size, please read my original introductory post in this thread.

@Alan, very good to hear that the reproduction project is advancing and refining at Chess Bazaar.  I'm saving up funds right now in anticipation of what will probably sell out within the first day or two, and also attempting to reproduce a Jaques-esque board.  However, I am still unsure of the proper size squares.  2.5" through 2.75" seem appropriate, but what would be considered accurate to the the period of the 1850s?  It seems to me that in that time the boards were a little smaller in relation to the pieces most times than what we use now.

Hi Jack, I asked Vik from CB what size board will go best with the 1849 4.4" and he said 2.75"  That's one heck of a big board. I was reminded today how large that was when I took out my old 2.25" Drueke to put some Old English lemon oil on it.  I am afraid after I buy the set the board will be another $300  and won't be able to afford it.

There's no need to spend $300 for a chess board for these pieces.  There are a lot of options far under that price.

House of Staunton has a couple of  boards for $109, and some more only a little more.

http://www.houseofstaunton.com/chess-boards/browse-by-square-size/available-with-275-squares.html

Jonas mentioned a German company, and after a little googling I discovered these interesting boards.

I'm still working on finding the right size, but the prices are more affordable.

And it is easy to make your own chess board with 2.75" squares, as I did.  The entire cost of this board was about $20. 

Hi Guys,

Yes the new 1849-50 (working title) series of sets are a joint effort between Vik, his carvers and turners and me. I get some extraordinarliy rare examples of very early Jaques sets through my workshop and with the permission of the owners I make exact samples, very accurate measurements and send these off to Vik in India. We then discuss any minor alterations that might need making for practical reasons and move forward to production.

I am very excited about an early (first 80 sets made) 3'5" king set we are discussing ATM. So if you like a smaller set which will suit a standard congress board contact Vik and put your name down.

I am also in discussion with another collector to see if we can get wood knights heads made by CAD-CAM. I am not sure the technology is up to scratch yet. That project is well on through the cycle and I should have some news on that in a few weeks.

There is also the possibility of reproducing some of the delightful BCC (British Chess Co.) sets which are so heavily weighted and very rare as the company was only in production for about 15 years (1890-1905) possibly the best hand feel of any Staunton pattern set ever. If you like a super heavyly weighted set this is the one for you.

Yes Jaques made a 4'4" set however Jaques actually sold sets by the size of the bases not height. Very sensible as the correct size board could be chosen at the same time. I do not know what size boards were used in the 19th c but from paintings of the period they sized much as we do now.

It sounds to me as if a 2.25" squared board would be good for a 4.4" set I know that FIDE has a rule about the king base diamater be 80% of the square size or some such. That would be worth checking out.

Alan D (chessspy.com)

Alan:

Is there any premium attached to the Jaques ivory pieces stained in black and natural?

I see few pics of the black stained pieces, so I wonder if they get a bump in collectibility for the extra bit of rarity?

In my experience Jaques made ivory sets in red and white only. All the black and white ivory sets I have seen have been re-stained to cover up replacement pieces. This can be verified by unscrewing some of the pieces (they were all made in at least two parts) and seeing if there is any evidence of previous red bleed through.

So, no they are likely to be less collectable than the correctly coloured sets for that reason.

Here's a helpful link on Jaques original sets...

http://www.crumiller.com/chess/chess_pages/chess_jaques.htm

I look forward to seeing the new prototype remake that Alan is working on.....

Hopefully, it will incorporate much if not all ideally of the real deal's construction both inside and out. If someone is gonna do it right and spot on this time, I would guess the price tag might be a sticker shock for some. But, to the end result is the means and it surely would be a winner ultimately with collectors that would love to own a true 1849 replica that leaves the others in the dust... I do hope with Alan's involvement it will be first rate and second to none and hard to distinguse from the real deal. Now wouldn't that be somethin' to save for :) 

Well for the ones he ran out of he got $247.99  I hope the new set isn't way over that price.  Anyways I hope someone at his end double checks all the pieces before shipping and NOT depend on the manufacturer.  I only say this because I heard nightmare stories last night at the chess club with more than one manufacturer.  

Robb , what do you think of the second pictured set in post #1 ?  Close enough to the genuine article ?  Is it worth $400.  ? 

Reb.... I'm doing a pic for ya now to answer your question... Hang tight....

OK here ya go... Real Deal Left and Remake Right... Your Call...

Robb, ebony stained (touched up) is still genuine ebony. Boxwood stained is called ebonized.  They do not have to tell you as long as it is genuine ebony if it is touched up to give it that all deep black apperance. Even 5 years ago natural deep black ebony was rare. Do you really think all these sets that say genuine ebony haven't been doctored?  

I noticed many years ago when they would used ebony that wasn't doctored up, it was hard then not to get a piece here and there with a streak of brown. Very little as I understand is jet black.  You just don't see the brown streaks anymore, this was done for the demand of the customers.  I would rather have my ebony natural but I think that is a thing of the past. 

First most of the labor hours will be very similar to the 1849 set they ran out of.  Yes there has been some R & D getting it to Alan's specs.  But the labor once in production should not be any different. The wood is also the same. Just  the deatils of each piece has changed some and the weighting will be a bit different.  

I for one know that Alan is putting in work here and I don't know what deal he made with Vik but in my mind I will tack on another $50/set for Alan and another $50/set for Vik but that's all I will pay more than what the 1849 set sells for now. In fact after the first 50 or so I wouldn't be surprised that Vik doesn't lower it a few bucks.  I for one would not pay $899 and $999 for the HOS sets. The mark up is huge. But then again many do just to have the pedigree on it.  Look at  the people who pay extra for coins because they say "early release" etc. so much BS going on, a MS70 is = to a MS70 with early release in quality but when the add the words early release people will pay a premium.  Remember in the coin world for 200 years there was no such thing. People invent crap to demand higher prices. 

THIS past Thursday night I saw a beautiful drop dead georgeous set made of African Padouck (blood rosewood) and boxwood from the House of Chess. He paid $149 and it came with a beautiful box laser etched et. all.

It beat the hell out of my HOS set I paid a lot more for without a box. 

Just my opinion here.  You do not need to pay big bucks for a very nice set and everyone can be happy.  You can't tell me there is going to be that many more man hours in this upcoming set and wood is wood.  R&D that is a different story and like I said CB can recoup $50/set and I am guessing Alan may get about $50/set for all the hours he put in. So I am expecting a price of somewhere in the ball park of $345 ish for the first so many sets then I think once CB recoups the R&D he can drop his end. 

Would I like a pedigree you bet I would, I would like a certificate that is was designed by Alan Dewey and the set number.  The total cost for the certificate should not be anymore than $5.00  A plate to put on your own box maybe $10 etched.

Wicmike.. Thats a very good point.! The Ebony sets I have contain a slight amount of brown streaks coming through. Its not really noticable unless you use a magnifying glass though.

Is there any reason, other than price, to not prefer the present day offerings of Jaques?  For example ...

http://www.jaqueslondon.co.uk/online-chess-set-leather-casket.html

Well they have the exclusive name. This set will not be called that so you can say it will be generic.  It's like if someone copied thr Aplle I phone and sold it for 1/2 price although it was the same. People want the brand name. $3,999 pounds  Holy Shot!!!!  Talk about mark up on all ends and in between.  Like I said how many more man hours do you really beleive go into the sets that are super expensive EXCEPT for the knights if they get fancy, which I don't prefer. I prefer as original as I can get not the fancy crazy ones you see now a days.