Reproduction and Real Jaques of London Chess Set

Hello Josh

I am not claiming you ripped our 1851 design off, however you and I both know we were supplied that design way before you! so perhaps you need to look to your manufacturer to get a clear picture? Also Frank emailed me last year and advised about this 1849 design, and I remember at that timeI had advised we already had an 1849 in the pipeline due for imminent release! 

I guess we are at the mercy of our manufacturers, so to conclude our joint manufacturing unit ( your and ours) have supplied us the same set, however they supplied us first! ..but by all means yours in certain respect, with the add on of lozenge and being ebony is worth 10x more? 

cheers 

In my capacity as a chess set retorer, I have seen more early Jaques sets than almost anyone I can think of. I have of necessity studied them closely.

It is my opininon that Jaques went through many slight variations of design in the first few years of production, not just different carvers but turnings also. Therefore there is no single 1849/50 Staunton design.

In my article explaining the origins of the Staunton design I make it clear that the iconography of the Staunton pieces, that is to say the actual design of the piece identifiers (top bits) and the stem base design was already used in English printed chess books of the period from 1818 many years before Jaques claimed the design in 1849. An earlier printed pawn design was kept (which we still use) but the 'Staunton' pawn base stem and ball was used in 1818.

So although Jaques were granted the design protection for 3 years and took B H Wood to court in the 19th c (upheld but overturned on appeal) I doubt if the design can really be considered to be patentable or belong to any particular firm or person.

Similarrly for all the drop shop resellers of these Indian made sets. Claimimg propriety rights to a design which is mass produced and avaliable from several different sources makes them look a bit silly.

My advice would be to enjoy a set you like. Do not pay so much as to make you reluctant to use it and also remember that as is posted above, all these sets are made by the same firm so paying thousands of $ is rather pointless.

Frank brought his 1849 set into the office for us to reproduce. Nobody sent us any designs to start with. If you look at the images on our 1849 listing, you will see a side by side image comparison of our reproduction set against Frank's original 1849, which is valued in excess of $10,000.

 Your company in it's various iterations have been ripping off the House of Staunton for years. Below is an image from 2013 where you redesigned your website to be an exact copy of the House of Staunton website. 

Carl, it appears that instead of lowering the tone I actually have brought the tone higher and also shed a lot more light on the situation.  You're welcome.

Josh..is that the best you can do? ...we liked the design of the house of staunton site which appeared to be volusion based, we also ran a volusion core based website and used one of the paid templates...so you emmulate what you believe to be the best dont you? As soon as Shawn made a comlaint to our hosts, we changed it immediatley.....however HOS alawys CLAIM they are being riped off, if you want to wash your dirty clothes in the open on here please continue..as I said, we supplied HOS for at least 5 years! .....AND If you need me to start wipng your nose in the dirt, the way youre tryng to now..carry on as I have lots to tell on here too, backed up to the hilt!! so carry on Sir! 

I need  a little bit of clarification on this.  Are you saying it is the same design specifications, or is it literally the very same set being manufactured by the same woodworkers in India? 

I know this post was not directed to me, but I think there are some obvious differences in the knight, for what it's worth. Which is certainly less than $2000 :-)

well seems like the gloves are off and to be honest lets roll the dice! 

IT IS THE EXACT DESIGN MANUFACTURED BY THE EXACT COMPANY THAT IS SUPPLYING THE EXACT SET TO BOTH MY COMPANY AND HOS. the differences are as previously explained. 

let me be clear. HOS (Josh) ARE NOT SO INNOCENT! They also copy designs that have been marketed by maqny other companies first, then they are offerd the same design, give it a different name and charge YOU ALL 3 times as much, they also go on claiming to be manufacturers when clearly they are a middle man ! ..just like us and many others. The thing is, I have been instrumental in offering fantastic reproductions of high quality sets for reasonalble prices, im now on the big HOS radar and they will stop at nothing in an attempt to slur and defame my name and company......I openly state we have and do sell same designs as HOS but that is only because we use the same manufacturers. HOS own a copyright to one knight design called IMPERIAL or COLLECTORS series? that too was offered to us in 2006, we marketed it and soon afterwards HOS filed a lawsuit against us......since then, almost every chess retailer are offering the Imperial and collectors set....it cannot be avoided and the manufacturers are not loyal to one distributor....

HOS also claimed for years that we copied their collectors plastic set, when in reality they had us make it especially for them on a royalty basis. the problem is howver as soon as another chess manufactuer got their hands on it CN CHESS MING ZHU he copied it and flooded the US with it, of course HOS went out their way to lay blame on our chinese facilty, and ironically they use the very same company CN CHESS who copied their plastic designs to this date to supply them with their plastic sets and vinyl voards bags ets,..for the top plastic sets they use REVI MOHAN form grandwell India 

is there anything else you wish to know ? 

All I know is that I appreciate Carl's dedication and efforts offering  premium quality reproduction sets to collectors like myself on chess.com at reasonable price that I can afford.  I'm a senior citizen on a fixed income and appreciate not being "ripped off" with the pricing of comparable sets by other companies. 

Carl, no one but you is being argumentative or attacking others.  This is not a fight, so please quit fighting.

I have been buying sets from HoS since 1997.  I actually would give away sets to relatives, like my brother-in-laws on both my and my wife's side of the family.  And I have been known to, more than a few times, sell a set I owned quite cheap to another chess player and then buy a new one for myself to just keep upgraded.

I remember a period, about 5 years now that you mention it, where the sets were different.  Just after that the quality of the sets improved quite a bit.  I talked with Shawn, back then, and he told me how they had to change suppliers because the one they had for the 5 years or so dropped the quality.  Perhaps you were that supplier, and perhaps not.

And yes, having the manufacturers that made sets for them, make and sell the same exact sets to you, makes it that you are indeed copying them.  And that is only if you are copying them buy where you are buying the exact duplicates.

youre missing the point....manufacturers do not carw whom they are offering their designs too, all they are interested in is sales of their designs...so we get a visit every year from 3 of the main manufacturers in Amritsar, all bring with them their " new latest designs"  to offerus..oh sure we try and get a sole distributor agreement with them, however they tell you yes of cours Mr Carl..but the next thing you know is they have also sold those designs to the next distributor they meet with

this is the nature of Indian suppliers, all very nice people but they do not care and are not loyal to one company! they offer their designs to ALL who are willing to pay and can buy in bulk! 

again, my friend Avtarjeet created with one of the top manufactuers 5 unique designs, he paid a lot of money for the " rights" ...after some disagreements between manufacturer/distributor, despite the sets being registered under copyright, the manufacturer offered these 5 designs to HOS, who had absolutley no qualms in marketing them under different names, but the identical design....

this is the nature of our business, so to make stupid accusasions as Josh did earlier is exactly that, stupid...

someone once said

" he who is without sin, cast the first stone" 

I agree with this assessment 100%.  I have no idea how OS does it but I would never be able to enjoy the finest sets for the price.  I have the Fischer set/board/box all set up and I smile everytime I look at it. 

The four sets I have from OS I can honestly say I have not had one bad piece, no nicks, no bulging bottoms, no scrtaches, not even a hairline crack. All have been perfect to a fault.  I am gueesing someone in carl's company inspects all pieces upon arrival as he gets them. That is a big plus for customer service. It's great to buy a chess set knowing ahead of time what you open up will make you smile.

So Carl, are you saying that Frank Camaratta and/or Shawn never designed or commissioned a design on their own?  Are you saying that those designs existed already and Frank, and then Shawn, simply bought those sets without any say in the design?

When Josh pointed out that there were some specific things about this 1849 set, making it different from other sets, you are saying they are exaggerating or making this up and selling the exact same product as you but at a much higher price?  Be careful.  He talked about a patent pending weighting design.  Are you sure that your sets have the same weighting?

And Carl, you said, in writing, that they copied your 1851 set.  Do you disagree with Josh when he says they sent Frank's 1849 set to the craftsmen to duplicate it instead of any other set currently on the market, as yours was and is?

Carl, you are the one that opened up this discussion when you wrote in all capitals that their 1849 set was an EXACT duplicate of your 1851 set.

I think you are associated with in some form to HOS and for that reason I will not discuss, but I will go on to say Frank has a patent pending perhaps on what he calls a proprietary weighting system ? and good luck to him on that score. 

I never meant to say HOS copied, I meant to simply explain the truth, and I have done so. 

youre a sneakty person eyechess, you insinuate in a very clever way, you started this crap and it looks like you want to finish it too. 

there is NOTHING to be careful about? the plain and simple truth is, both my company and Hos use the services of a particular manufacturer and they have supplied us and them the same set, we got there first however! Im not disputing Frank sent an original, all I am claiming is we got hold of the reproductions way before Franks set launched, so do you wanna explain that?? 

Frank has been instrumental in design of chess sets, of course he has, but so what, I do this on a weekly basis, so do my colleagues who own chess outlets, we all try to come up with new designs, we liaise with manufacturers, and I have an artist whom I meet with and we discuss new designs. Then there are requests emailed to us asking if we would launch a remake of a design etc etc...

the nature of carvings, one has to consider the " handi craft" suffice to say instead of claiming they sets are 100% identical in form I should allow for certain differences. That said, the carvers are clever in thatthey will manipulate their offerings by making a very very minor change to a knight for example, just to throw the scent off? ...its a dog eat dog work EYECHESS......

All I know is, our 1851 hit the scene ages before HOS launched their 1849. There are many experts on here, and they will I am certain note the " almost identical design...apart from the very nice additions HOS have made to " their" reproduction. 

at the end of the day I really dont give a damn if you or anyone else wants to go and pay a damn fortune for a reproduction set..that is up to you. I offer superb quality at affordibility and because of that Im now on HOS and Jaques radar, and it looks like im in for a rough ride....bring it on! 

Hi Josh Carl Mike and all,

Well the gloves certainly do seem to be off and how would we roll the dice with them on I wonder :)

All of the above posts contain information that has long been needed to be brought into the open and I applaud you all for making this very interesting reading.

Keep up the good work!

Carl, you continually insist on making this a battle, which it is not.

I am an Optometrist (eye doctor) and have no financial relations with any Chess manufacturer, supplier or retailer, except that I am a retail consumer, and no more.

I'm sorry, but you are the one that started this claiming HoS was charging a price that was way too high for a product that you say is exactly the same as something you sell in your retail operation.  I simply called you on this.  You must have some kind of guilty conscience because you are reacting so emotionally and violently, attacking HoS and now me.  All I have done is to observe what has been stated, and asked questions.

Please answer this question instead of dodging it by attacking others.  Carl, are you now saying that the HoS 1849 Reproduction set that they have listed for $3,495.00 is the EXACT (all capitals are Carl's "words") same as the set you are calling your 1851 Reproduction, in all ways and details?

You know, if you want to make less expensive copies of someone else's work just say you are doing that.  There is nothing wrong with doing so.

And Carl, I am interested because I am currently looking for a Jaques reproduction set with Black as the dark pieces to go with a 2.375" and a 2.5" very nice wood chess boards that I own.

I also personally know Frank Camaratta and have talked with him many, many times.  I know Frank well enough, or perhaps I should say Frank knows me well enough, that he will tell me if I should buy a set from someone else or from HoS, if it is best for my needs.  And yes, Frank has done this a few times over these number of years.

Also Carl, Frank was the first, literally, to start having Jaques reproduction sets manufactured, back in the mid 1990's.  I bet a small amount of money that his business and history comes before yours.

Cannon chess were selling good sets in the 1990s.