Serious Problem with V-Tek 300 clock.

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Eyechess
MassiveTempo wrote:

Read what Micah wrote. You didn't understand what he said and your answer has nothing to do with what he said. This clock is known for having many bugs.

I just have to ask.

Exactly who is this population that knows it has many bugs?  Broad generalities do nothing to improve the situation for anyone.

And what exactly are those many bugs?  Once again making such a broad and not specific claim does nothing but be negative.

MassiveTempo
Eyechess wrote:
MassiveTempo wrote:

Read what Micah wrote. You didn't understand what he said and your answer has nothing to do with what he said. This clock is known for having many bugs.

I just have to ask.

Exactly who is this population that knows it has many bugs?  Broad generalities do nothing to improve the situation for anyone.

And what exactly are those many bugs?  Once again making such a broad and not specific claim does nothing but be negative.

 

Here comes the cheerleader again. Micah is saying that the clock adds the second time control to the time even though that player runs out of time. That's one problem. Another issue with this clock is that when the time runs out the clock will keep adding increment after that player lost on time.

Eyechess

This is not cheerleading.  I simply am asking for the specific facts.  You have yet to say exactly who the individuals are that say this clock is fraught with bugs.

I am sorry for you, but you are just not credible with your generalized negatives.

Micahsmith
MassiveTempo wrote:
Eyechess wrote:
MassiveTempo wrote:

Read what Micah wrote. You didn't understand what he said and your answer has nothing to do with what he said. This clock is known for having many bugs.

I just have to ask.

Exactly who is this population that knows it has many bugs?  Broad generalities do nothing to improve the situation for anyone.

And what exactly are those many bugs?  Once again making such a broad and not specific claim does nothing but be negative.

 

Here comes the cheerleader again. Micah is saying that the clock adds the second time control to the time even though that player runs out of time. That's one problem. Another issue with this clock is that when the time runs out the clock will keep adding increment after that player lost on time.

The issue with the clock adding the increment time for a player that ran out of time was fixed with the latest firmware update.

Micahsmith
ShelbyLohrman wrote:

I will listen to Micah all day.  He actually has the clock and is constantly trying to help me make it better.

I hope my comments over the last few years about the VTEK 300 haven't seemed harsh or anything. I actually think the VTEK 300 is the best chess clock on the market and with a few minor changes, I think it would be a perfect chess clock. 

TundraMike

Shelby are all your clocks now have the latest firmware updates you have in stock? Also, are you scheduled for any other firmware updates in the near future and if you do come out with one do you update them for no charge as long as the customer pays freight each way?  

You mentioned somewhere you can't have a sale but would customize it and throw in a padded bag to carry it in. That sounds great. Are you going to ever make the Burl Wood again? How about a deep ruby red would look sharp. I guess sales will be slow for clocks while tournaments are canceled.  I wouldn't doubt if all tournaments get canceled through June or who knows maybe the rest of the summer till they can find a med that responds well to this for EVERYONE. Of course, the vaccine could be 18 months away. I hope you and everyone you know are ell and keep safe for now. I was thinking of using $150 of the stimulus money to keep an independent chess vendor in the business.  grin.png

Micahsmith

I hope the VTEK 300 gets a firmware update soon to fix the following issues (I've mentioned these issues to Shelby and the manufacturer previously on multiple occasions except for issue 5 since I just noticed this issue very recently):

1) The clock does not give the increment for move one in the US Chess or Custom modes like it does in the FIDE mode. For example, for G/3;inc2, each player gets 3:02, not 3:00, to complete move one under FIDE and US Chess rules but the clock only gives the players 3:02 for move one if the clock is in the FIDE mode. In the US Chess and Custom modes, the clock only gives each player 3:00 to complete move one. A lot of people are unaware that you get the increment for move one under FIDE and US Chess rules. I helped write a "TD Tip" (which are meant to be editorial comments) with US Chess rulebook editor Tim Just and others which should be added to the online edition of the US Chess rulebook soon and should appear in the next print edition of the rulebook that makes it clear that the players get the increment for move one under US Chess rules. Since getting the increment for move one is the FIDE and US Chess rule, I don't see any reason why the clock shouldn't give the increment for move one in the Custom mode as well. 

2) The clock should "freeze" while in the FIDE mode but it doesn't (it's permissible under FIDE rules for the clock to not freeze under certain time controls and have a sign making it clear who ran out of time first if both players are out of time but the clock doesn't do this either and I think it's simpler just to have the clock freeze under all time controls when using the FIDE mode). https://handbook.fide.com/files/handbook/C02Standards.pdf (see 5.4.1 and 5.4.2)

3) If the tenths of a second are turned off and a player has less than one second but still has some tenths of a second left, it looks like the player has run out of time since the clock simply shows "0:00". It would be better if the clock showed "0:01", like all other clocks that I am aware of do when not showing tenths of a second, to make it clear the player still has some time left. 

4) You can't start either players side of the clock when un-pausing the clock.

5) If you set the clock for a multiple time control with the increment only on the sudden death time control (such as the time control for the 2020 World Championship match which is 40/120,20/60,SD/15 with a 30 second increment only on the sudden death time control) the clock incorrectly gives the increment for move one if it is in the FIDE mode. 

TundraMike

@Micahsmith

I am curious to know if Shelby got back to you addressing your post #53. Was hoping he would chime in or maybe even TD's on how important each one of the 5 "issues" are to rated OTB chess.

I was really hoping that Shelby would have responded to your post since he respects your comments.

Why I am asking is before I payout $149.95 + shipping ,  want to make sure I don't have to send it back & forth to get an update. 

 
 
 
Micahsmith

He recently replied about issues 2, 3, and 4 in the "FIDE Chess Clock Contract Bidding" thread (followed by a further reply from me). 

Micahsmith

bump

Micahsmith

Any update on these issues?

Micahsmith

bump

Micahsmith
Micahsmith wrote:

I hope the VTEK 300 gets a firmware update soon to fix the following issues (I've mentioned these issues to Shelby and the manufacturer previously on multiple occasions except for issue 5 since I just noticed this issue very recently):

1) The clock does not give the increment for move one in the US Chess or Custom modes like it does in the FIDE mode. For example, for G/3;inc2, each player gets 3:02, not 3:00, to complete move one under FIDE and US Chess rules but the clock only gives the players 3:02 for move one if the clock is in the FIDE mode. In the US Chess and Custom modes, the clock only gives each player 3:00 to complete move one. A lot of people are unaware that you get the increment for move one under FIDE and US Chess rules. I helped write a "TD Tip" (which are meant to be editorial comments) with US Chess rulebook editor Tim Just and others which should be added to the online edition of the US Chess rulebook soon and should appear in the next print edition of the rulebook that makes it clear that the players get the increment for move one under US Chess rules. Since getting the increment for move one is the FIDE and US Chess rule, I don't see any reason why the clock shouldn't give the increment for move one in the Custom mode as well. 

The"TD Tip" referred to above and stated below has just been added to the online edition of the US Chess rulebook (https://new.uschess.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/US-Chess-Rule-Book-Online-Only-Edition-Chapters-1-2-11-5-11-20.pdf) and will appear in the print edition the next time it is updated. The TD Tip makes it clear that for increment time controls, the players get the increment for move one under US Chess rules. I hope the VTEK 300 will get a firmware upgrade to fix this (and the other) issues I've brought up. 

“TD TIP: Not all digital clocks correctly give the increment for move one when you set increment on the clock. For clocks that don't, the increment time in seconds should be added manually to the base time, if possible, so each player gets the increment for move one. For example, for G/3;inc2, each player gets 3.02 (three minutes and two seconds) to complete move one. If the clock only gives 3.00 for each player’s first move when the clock is set—with a base time of three minutes and increment of two seconds—then, if possible, two seconds should be added to each player’s base time when setting the clock. If a game is started without the increment applied for move one, it is recommended that the TD not allow the clock to be subsequently adjusted to add the increment for move one. This failure to adjust the clock initially should not be allowed as grounds to contest a later time forfeit claim.“

TundraMike

I am trying to interpret what is inferred in your statement above.

The VTEK does not do this automatically but it has to be set manually as some other clocks do?

Therefore the VTEK is still fine to buy in its current configuration but it would be nice if this feature was added to the firmware.  It just makes life easier at a tournament for the players and TD, one less argument.   Do I have it right? 

The reason why I am going over this is that I want to buy a new clock but want to make sure it is the last clock I have to buy or update at my age. 

 
Micahsmith

Yes, you essentially have it right.

If the VTEK is in the US Chess or Custom mode, it doesn't automatically give the increment for move one when you set the increment on the clock (the majority of clocks correctly give the increment for move one automatically when you set increment on the clock but there are some that don't like the VTEK when it's in the US Chess or Custom mode). Therefore, if you are using the VTEK in the US Chess or Custom mode, you have to manually add the increment time to the base time to get the increment for move one. On the VTEK it is a little cumbersome to manually add seconds to the base time. The only way to do it is to use the TD adjust feature and the seconds will not be saved if you access the time control again from the favorites or recent list but it will be saved if you access it via the last game feature. If the VTEK is in the FIDE mode, it correctly gives the increment for move one automatically. 

TundraMike

Okay, I see so just keep it in the FIDE mode and problem solved?  Is there any drawback for using the FIDE mode exclusively at a USCF tournament?  This is a big decision for me to get it now or wait maybe another year for the firmware to be updated as I do not think it will be anytime soon. At my age, every year going forward is magnified. 

TundraMike

Another question, is this fixable via a software update, or is it necessary to do a firmware update?  Can one send it into the manufacturer for either and would it be free of charge? 

Micahsmith

The only real difference in using the FIDE mode on the VTEK, besides the fact that it correctly gives the increment for move one, is that for multiple time controls, it doesn’t show the move count on the screen and waits to adds the second time control independently for each player once their time in the first time control runs out and only if the required number of moves in the first time control were met. 

I’m not optimistic about the VTEK getting an update anytime soon, which I think can only be done via a firmware update and they charge you for shipping. On the other hand, I think the issues with the Tap N Set clock will be fixed soon. Due to this, the fact that the Tap N Set is around $100 cheaper than the VTEK, and the fact that the other differences between the two clocks are minor, I would recommend getting the Tap N Set. 

TundraMike

But it just seems it's fine to run it in the FIDE mode all the time. Unless I am missing something.  You want the second time control to be added this way, yes? And also it is not mandatory to show move numbers on the screen since you are required to keep score anyway? 

I do like the Tap N Set. What are they fixing in it?

Also the display if you have 40/2hrs as in the US OPEN it will not show seconds till you are down to 99 minutes?  It needs another digit in the display. 1 1/2 hrs I understand displays as 90 min vs 1he 30min 00sec on a bigger display? Are they adding another space to expand the display?  It would be nice. 

I am just trying to be fair with each clock. 

 

 

 

Micahsmith

It's personal preference how you want the second time control added to the display. Personally, I like having the second time control added to the display once the required number of moves in the first time control are met. I also like seeing the number of moves on the screen  However, neither of these features are 100% necessary. 

 

Seeing seconds at all times (something I like but again is not 100% necessary) is also personal preference. The Tap N Set shows seconds once the time goes below one hour. If the time remaining is 1 1/2 hrs, most clocks that do not show seconds at all times will show 1 hour, 30 minutes, not 90 minutes.