Training Study Q: Have you ever spent 20-30 minutes examining one hard position?

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SeniorPatzer

I don't think I have ever done this while studying chess.  Have you?  I think the most I've done is maybe 10 minutes.  And when I mean study or train, I mean that you write down your decision and the variations that you saw without having moved any of the physical or virtual pieces.

A.)  Am I short changing my long term chess growth because of my impatience?

B.)  What do the best players do in their training?  Will they spend gobs of time analyzing a position in their heads before finding out the best move(s)?

KeSetoKaiba

Yes. Oh my word, so many irksome puzzle rush survival runs where I spend 30 minutes on one puzzle. Gah! Sometimes after 30 minutes I still get it wrong! Sometimes I get it correct after 30 minutes and it is a feeling of relief, but yeah it is tough. 

A) Maybe, but generally if you don't see the idea after 10 minutes, then an hour won't help because you are unfamiliar with the pattern or idea at play

B) Depends on the person, but calculation training and study of various pawn structures seems high on that list.

SeniorPatzer

Thanks for the feedback KeSeto!  

 

I have definitely spent 25-30 minutes during an OTB rated game for one move during a critical position, but I don't do this while studying or training a chess book or chess puzzle.  I was thinking maybe I'm not training properly.

wsswan

I'm like you because I've fallen asleep in 30 minute games when the other player thought to long. LOL

Ziryab

I have spent much more than thirty minutes examining a position. Once or twice, I've spent that long on a move in an OTB game. In several correspondence games, I have spent many hours for every single move through a long sequence. But the longest I've spent on a position was this position.
Black to move.


From Byrne -- Fischer, 1956.

I had it on a board on my dining room table for three days, and would sit down several times per day for ten minutes to an hour, studying and recording variations--never moving a piece. When I was finished, I compared my variations to those in Kasparov's My Great Predecessors, and then checked them with an engine.

SeniorPatzer
Ziryab wrote:

I have spent much more than thirty minutes examining a position. Once or twice, I've spent that long on a move in an OTB game. In several correspondence games, I have spent many hours for every single move through a long sequence. But the longest I've spent on a position was this position.
Black to move.


From Byrne -- Fischer, 1956.

I had it on a board on my dining room table for three days, and would sit down several times per day for ten minutes to an hour, studying and recording variations--never moving a piece. When I was finished, I compared my variations to those in Kasparov's My Great Predecessors, and then checked them with an engine.

 

You're keeping me in suspense.   Tell me the rest of the story where you nailed the analysis from both Garry's tome and the engine.

 

Toot your horn proudly.

Ziryab
SeniorPatzer wrote:
Ziryab wrote:

I have spent much more than thirty minutes examining a position. Once or twice, I've spent that long on a move in an OTB game. In several correspondence games, I have spent many hours for every single move through a long sequence. But the longest I've spent on a position was this position.
Black to move.


From Byrne -- Fischer, 1956.

I had it on a board on my dining room table for three days, and would sit down several times per day for ten minutes to an hour, studying and recording variations--never moving a piece. When I was finished, I compared my variations to those in Kasparov's My Great Predecessors, and then checked them with an engine.

 

You're keeping me in suspense.   Tell me the rest of the story where you nailed the analysis from both Garry's tome and the engine.

 

Toot your horn proudly.

 

There were errors in my analysis. Some substantial.

It was an instructive exercise, and for the next several months I could play out the game from memory, including some of the principal unplayed variations.

Some of my errors are noted in http://chessskill.blogspot.com/2017/04/byrne-fischer-new-york-1956.html

 

kirkland

 I almost never write down the moves first. I will mentally before making moves. For me its mental discipline I can get confused to what I am looking at, out of several moves for both and the best option. This is an area I need a lot of work in understanding the position, what my opponent is doing and what am I doing haha. As for time it depends live, daily, puzzles or studying games or openings. Patience and mental discipline how much time to study where It improves my overall chess playing in live games. I have been taking more time with rated puzzles and now my puzzle rating is close to 2100 however I dont feel that I am improving in my live games or daily games ugg. 

SeniorPatzer
kirkland wrote:

 I almost never write down the moves first. I will mentally before making moves. For me its mental discipline I can get confused to what I am looking at, out of several moves for both and the best option. This is an area I need a lot of work in understanding the position, what my opponent is doing and what am I doing haha. As for time it depends live, daily, puzzles or studying games or openings. Patience and mental discipline how much time to study where It improves my overall chess playing in live games. I have been taking more time with rated puzzles and now my puzzle rating is close to 2100 however I dont feel that I am improving in my live games or daily games ugg. 

 

I didn't say writing down the various moves first.  

 

I meant writing down your move after you decided on your chosen move.  That's just meant as self-disciplinary action to prevent you from saying to yourself, "That's the move I picked!"

 

The variations you write after you write down the selected move is to provide evidence that you calculated the line without having moved the pieces.

 

P.S.  Although in my daily games I invariably play around with the Analysis function to see how future positions look like, lol.

tygxc

I have spent 1 hour on 1 move in an over the board classical game. If the move wins, then time does not matter. If the move loses, then time does not matter either.
I have spent days on home analysis of a single position. Chess is a difficult game. It takes time and effort to find the truth about a position.

A) Yes impatience is bad.
B) Top players spend countless hours analysing positions. Fischer used to call fellow grandmasters in the middle of the night to tell them he had found a new move in some game.

tygxc

In this game
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1072293
Keres though about 5 Nxe5 for 2 hours. Time control was 40 moves in 2.5 hours.

tygxc

Here is another example:

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1048762

The Argentinian team had prepared the novelty 9...g5 at home. Geller, Keres, and Spassky thought more than half an hour before deciding on 10 fxg5.

everydaymachines
Ziryab wrote:

I have spent much more than thirty minutes examining a position. Once or twice, I've spent that long on a move in an OTB game. In several correspondence games, I have spent many hours for every single move through a long sequence. But the longest I've spent on a position was this position.
Black to move.


From Byrne -- Fischer, 1956.

I had it on a board on my dining room table for three days, and would sit down several times per day for ten minutes to an hour, studying and recording variations--never moving a piece. When I was finished, I compared my variations to those in Kasparov's My Great Predecessors, and then checked them with an engine.

 

What is the best move for black?

Santoy

I recently spent well over half an hour determined to find the solution to an ENDGAME puzzle.

Finally, I gave up. The answer: 0-0-0.

Grrrrrrrrrr!

Ziryab
everydaymachines wrote:
Ziryab wrote:

I have spent much more than thirty minutes examining a position. Once or twice, I've spent that long on a move in an OTB game. In several correspondence games, I have spent many hours for every single move through a long sequence. But the longest I've spent on a position was this position.
Black to move.


From Byrne -- Fischer, 1956.

I had it on a board on my dining room table for three days, and would sit down several times per day for ten minutes to an hour, studying and recording variations--never moving a piece. When I was finished, I compared my variations to those in Kasparov's My Great Predecessors, and then checked them with an engine.

 

What is the best move for black?

 

11...Na4, which is what Fischer played. White has many ways to respond.

SeniorPatzer
Ziryab wrote:
SeniorPatzer wrote:
Ziryab wrote:

I have spent much more than thirty minutes examining a position. Once or twice, I've spent that long on a move in an OTB game. In several correspondence games, I have spent many hours for every single move through a long sequence. But the longest I've spent on a position was this position.
Black to move.


From Byrne -- Fischer, 1956.

I had it on a board on my dining room table for three days, and would sit down several times per day for ten minutes to an hour, studying and recording variations--never moving a piece. When I was finished, I compared my variations to those in Kasparov's My Great Predecessors, and then checked them with an engine.

 

You're keeping me in suspense.   Tell me the rest of the story where you nailed the analysis from both Garry's tome and the engine.

 

Toot your horn proudly.

 

There were errors in my analysis. Some substantial.

It was an instructive exercise, and for the next several months I could play out the game from memory, including some of the principal unplayed variations.

Some of my errors are noted in http://chessskill.blogspot.com/2017/04/byrne-fischer-new-york-1956.html

 

 

I need a happy ending.  Please tell me that as a result of your patient, disciplined, and intense chess training of hours of studying one position of Bobby's Game of the Century, that in your  next 20-30 games of rated OTB classical play, your USCF rating soared a minimum of 50 points.

SeniorPatzer
Santoy_UK wrote:

I recently spent well over half an hour determined to find the solution to an ENDGAME puzzle.

Finally, I gave up. The answer: 0-0-0.

Grrrrrrrrrr!

 

Was it a tactics puzzle where White long castles with check and the White King can then take Black's rook on b2 next move?

If so, I didn't solve that puzzle either.  And I spent less that 5 minutes before giving up, lol.

Ziryab
SeniorPatzer wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
SeniorPatzer wrote:
Ziryab wrote:

I have spent much more than thirty minutes examining a position. Once or twice, I've spent that long on a move in an OTB game. In several correspondence games, I have spent many hours for every single move through a long sequence. But the longest I've spent on a position was this position.
Black to move.


From Byrne -- Fischer, 1956.

I had it on a board on my dining room table for three days, and would sit down several times per day for ten minutes to an hour, studying and recording variations--never moving a piece. When I was finished, I compared my variations to those in Kasparov's My Great Predecessors, and then checked them with an engine.

 

You're keeping me in suspense.   Tell me the rest of the story where you nailed the analysis from both Garry's tome and the engine.

 

Toot your horn proudly.

 

There were errors in my analysis. Some substantial.

It was an instructive exercise, and for the next several months I could play out the game from memory, including some of the principal unplayed variations.

Some of my errors are noted in http://chessskill.blogspot.com/2017/04/byrne-fischer-new-york-1956.html

 

 

I need a happy ending.  Please tell me that as a result of your patient, disciplined, and intense chess training of hours of studying one position of Bobby's Game of the Century, that in your  next 20-30 games of rated OTB classical play, your USCF rating soared a minimum of 50 points.

 

I think it went down.

SeniorPatzer

Lol.  That is the opposite of a happy ending to a disciplined training program.

Ziryab

Alas, massive growth in my chess knowledge since I reached my peak OTB rating nine years ago has only put the brakes on the decline in my performance that is the predictable consequence of not being as young as I was a few years ago. It does improve my teaching, however. I also hit a few online blitz peaks a mere six months ago, so it possible that I am still improving.

 

Increasing responsibilities as a tournament director also works against efforts to perform well OTB because it hinders focus on my game, especially when I put myself into the pairings to avoid any players having a bye.