1.e4 d6 2.d4 e5 3.dxe5 dxe5 4.Qxd8 Kxd8

my chess is still very very very very very very very very very evry  shit

but god demon  , my  fide rating is over 2000 .

Dear Greek guy:

That's odd, because in that long game you lost to a 1562 opponent, you weren't disconnected, but checkmated in 27 moves.

i was....... with my girlfriend when i played this game. i shouldn't underestimate the opponent.

While I do not particular like the way LaskerEmmanuel is expressing himself, I will have to agree with him on where he stands. Losing the right to castle doesn't nessecarily means a disadvantage(or rather, a disadvantages that demerits the use of an opening because of it.)

Lets look at what castling actually does:

1. Protects the king

2. Connects the rooks

#2 does not get affected much by losing castling rights, artificial castling will most likely require only one additional moves tops, and because the game has slowed consderably (queen exchange), its ok. #1 as well is not a problem as the queens are exchanged so black doesn't have to worry too much about being mated. There is the arguement that white can attack a centered king without queens, but really... white is, at the most up two moves in development, and black has no weaknesses. As long as black plays sensibly, there isn't a line that leads to a dominating white position.

ok, next arguement: white has Bc4 which gains a tempo, which is true. However, keep in mind that a lead in development is not a static advantage, meaning, it must be used quickly or it will diminish. Now, without queens on the board, Its not particularly clear as to how white will convert his/her lead in development, without black catching up in his own development (which would no doubt be a level game.)

I regularly play the black side of 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e5 4. dxe5 dxe5 5. Qxd8 Kxd8 and I'm over 2100 on here, so hopefully that adds some rating to this side of the arguement.

To conclude, I will agree that white has some advantage in the line, but without queens black's weaknesses (lag in development, centered king) cannot be taken advantage quickly enough before black catches up in development. And while it is true that black probably can no longer play for the win (without risk that is), the opening is desirable for the game it creates: a slow positional game, rather than one involving attacking, counter attacking, and a whole other mess of imbalances.

thnx nimzo

but here i have to make general comment

you united states of america chess players ,like very much positional ,and simple game

we the european guys ,like more aggresive openings ,dragons, etc

cheers everybody

Lasker

<LaskerEmmanuel> Please don't make rash generalizations about people from a certain place. Where in the world did you come up with the idea that playing style is border specific?

I love a good attacking game just as much as any other player and I'm sure there are european players who enjoy positionallly crushing their opponents as well.

Don't label, please.

american people likes clear things

take for instance only the great american players

Pillsbury

Fischer

Morphy

all of them they enjoyed clear positions

you're making claims based solely on your opinion. You basically just listed american players and "said" they liked clear position. That would be the same as me going:

"Russian players like the knight piece the best

take for instance:

Kasparov

Karpov

Botvinnik

all of them enjoyed moving the knight piece

CASE-CLOSED... yes?"

Also, You're missing Fine and Reshevsky on your list.

yes i forgot Capablanca

actually it is not easy to find many top american players ,that enjoy dirty things

white doesn't get a winning advantage from the kxd8 line, but neither from the philidor or even 1.. a5 ( which I'm sure does not lose by force). However, white has all the winning chances and black's mistakes will have worse effects than white's. As long as the players make inacuricies or mistakes (which you can count on any player below 2000 to do), even with equal pawn structure and queens off the board, alot could happen. On the other hand, I find the philidor defence very passive and nf3 is also great since in philidor's white easily holds the initiative.

what are you talking about ?

goodnight

agkouri apo piso ,kronia pola !

I want to mention some facts about this kind of variations first:

1. Nowadays black from the very first moves of the opening fights for initiative.

2. During a tournament you should use your energy economically. If you need a win you should take a little risk by choosing complicated variations and if you need a draw you should choose a more stable and easy one. Although always your opponent can change the nature of the game. For this reason this variation is not a good choice for black because they should use a lot of energy for defending their position and they would lose a lot of energy.

3. For a match this is more acceptable (grandmasters will never try this variation ina match) for club players. It may remind them the "Berlin Wall" in Kaspaov - Kramnik match. In fact the only compensation that black has, for that positional big disadvantage, is a psycholugical advantage, White knows that he has the advantage and he wants to punish black for his choosen variation. That's the only way that black can get a point.

In conclusion I want to say that it is not logical to use a lot of energy in a bad positon in an imprtant competition. But this variation is very good in training games for club players to develop their defending skills. I would answer with "3.Nf3", not because I feel uncomfortable in that position but because White queen is better than his calleague and avoid any psychological traps.

But in answer to those guys who belive this position is in favour of black, believe me some guys believe that black is better, I have a question:

What their gonna do if white plays "5. Kd1" ?(just kidding)

but don't computers have trouble with the endgame, making it somewhat inacurate?

This idea for black exists in more than one opening. Black will often play c6 and Kc7. It is playable. The percentage won by white is not the best guide to evaluating an opening idea. Some players who play this way are weaker players than their opponents and are playing scared. Some are not inferior players and want to play for a draw or appear to be in order to discomfort white or provoke white to try too hard to win.

Some points here:

1. While it's possible that losing the right to castle is not that big a disadvantage, it is very difficult to argue that it is in fact an advantage.
2. The best this defense can hope for, at the theoretical level, is a position where white's advantage is null out of the opening/early middlegame

3. [GreenLaser] Yes, it exists in more than one opening, but I don't know of any that are this symmetrical. In the Berlin, as pointed above, there are asymmetries, and in the King's Indian, there are always asymmetries.

1.e4 e5 2.d4 d6 3.dxe5 dxe5 4.Qxd8+ Kxd8 5.Bc4 f6 6.f4

This is the kind of game where I would play for several  hours, and eventually grind out a win in the endgame after 40 moves.  I guess I fit the stereotype of an American because I like dry positional chess

It is not necessarily better. Its more dynamic, but dxe5 followed by Qxd8+ gives white some early plusses. His development will be much more smooth, and although white shouldn't be winning, the most we can expect out of an opening is to be in a position where there is sufficient room to outplay an opponent. For white, there definitley is, for black, I don't know...

This does without any shadow of a doubt give white an advantage. Black is crippled due to the fact that he can't castle. White will most likely develop very rapidly and castle to safety. When that's done, all he has to do is attack the king. The king is in the center and the game is very open. White should have no problems. This is all theory of course, and it's no insta-win, but it would be a horrible thing for black to play.

I don't think black's game is horrible, just inferior. He can cope with the loss of castling by ...c6 and ...Kc7 but again white has an initiative.