Advocating for 1.b3 and 1...b6: The Nimzo-Larsen Attack and the Modern Defense

Sort:
darkunorthodox88
Kaeldorn wrote:
darkunorthodox88 a écrit :
Kaeldorn wrote:

Here the main/critical line of it, back in the days:

 

this isnt a critical line, this is a composition , virtually no one plays 3....f5 here since the refutation is well known

If you read properly, I said what it used to be, back then, not what it is now.

And what you call a "refutation" is barely accessible as such for players under 2000, or was so. I've win enough games as Black out of that line in classical so I can tell.

its a well known study from giochino greco, it was NEVER a line since as far as im aware, the refutation of g6 isntead of nf6 is also very well known. i knew it when i was a scholastic player.

Kaeldorn
darkunorthodox88 a écrit :

its a well known study from giochino greco, it was NEVER a line since as far as im aware, the refutation of g6 isntead of g6 is also very well known. i knew it when i was a scholastic player.

No sir, it used to be considered like a critical variation of the Owen Dfense, indeed refuted for high level players.

For what I know, the fact your guy studied the line doesn't make it not a line.

Anyhow, I don't remember if I've find that line in a book or in a magazine back then, but I do remember well, reading the comment "and White has a winning attack", it seemed rather unclear to me, and I took to myself the bet Black could prevail with its extra exchange if White did not make it to perform efficiently enough the said attack.

And indeed I've win games, again, versus players up to Elo 1920 in classsical, when I was still unrated and 1500 Rapid.

Besides, I do remmber well talking about that line with other club competitiors, and no one ever said "oh, but that's not a line".

So, whatever it is to you now, what I said is what is has been to me when I played it back around 1990.

sndeww

Why hypermodern is cool:

1. It's funny looking

2. It's fun to play

3. It doesn't instantly lose

- end -

crazedrat1000

If I was going to play b6 I'd mix it with the french vs e4, and avoid Owens defense. Yes I know some of you love Owens defense, however as white I also love seeing Owens defense, so yeah. Like most things I'm sure it can work, especially when people have no idea what to do against it, but I just don't like the idea of playing something where I'll be hitting a ceiling at a certain level.

tygxc

@11

Basman was most famous for 1 e4 g5, 1 e4 h6, 1 e4 a6, but played Owen's Defense too
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=2076602

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1739381

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=2683277

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1026263

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1026264

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1714945

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1714935

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1714930

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1714920

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1719108

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1026261

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1453457

darkunorthodox88
Kaeldorn wrote:
darkunorthodox88 a écrit :

its a well known study from giochino greco, it was NEVER a line since as far as im aware, the refutation of g6 isntead of g6 is also very well known. i knew it when i was a scholastic player.

No sir, it used to be considered like a critical variation of the Owen Dfense, indeed refuted for high level players.

For what I know, the fact your guy studied the line doesn't make it not a line.

Anyhow, I don't remember if I've find that line in a book or in a magazine back then, but I do remember well, reading the comment "and White has a winning attack", it seemed rather unclear to me, and I took to myself the bet Black could prevail with its extra exchange if White did not make it to perform efficiently enough the said attack.

And indeed I've win games, again, versus players up to Elo 1920 in classsical, when I was still unrated and 1500 Rapid.

Besides, I do remmber well talking about that line with other club competitiors, and no one ever said "oh, but that's not a line".

So, whatever it is to you now, what I said is what is has been to me when I played it back around 1990.

its literally the first "Historical game" in the chessmaster program lol. It is super well known.

Uhohspaghettio1
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

The marginal objective inferiority of 1...b6 redeems itself by the fact that most people have no clear idea how to play against it. The result being that knowledge of territory becomes more important than the decision to actually play it. There are recurring themes 1...b6. Then if white goes really passive, black can doubledown with passivity and play the Hippo.

Not true - the Owen's is easy to play against, it's a very familiar situation that pops up in all kinds of openings. The Owen's is just a superior version of the queen's indian or several other openings. People also play it a fair bit online, so white can get experience in it and know the themes pretty well.

There are lots of annoying variations that act as you describe, where all opening preparation goes out the window, and you should be better and yet you don't know how to play the position so lose the marginal advantage you had. If you can't get a great position out of the opening in the Owen's you have absolutely messed up.

darkunorthodox88
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

The marginal objective inferiority of 1...b6 redeems itself by the fact that most people have no clear idea how to play against it. The result being that knowledge of territory becomes more important than the decision to actually play it. There are recurring themes 1...b6. Then if white goes really passive, black can doubledown with passivity and play the Hippo.

Not true - the Owen's is easy to play against, it's a very familiar situation that pops up in all kinds of openings. The Owen's is just a superior version of the queen's indian or several other openings. People also play it a fair bit online, so white can get experience in it and know the themes pretty well.

There are lots of annoying variations that act as you describe, where all opening preparation goes out the window, and you should be better and yet you don't know how to play the position so lose the marginal advantage you had. If you can't get a great position out of the opening in the Owen's you have absolutely messed up.

you just suck at playing it. its not an inferior qid same way the english defense is not an inferior QID, different ideas. Just because you can play your 7 move reply agaisnt patzers and get a good position doesnt make an opening bad.

imagine judging a philidor, based only on the noobies that play at the lower levels and not how masters play it.

najdorf96

indeed. I'm against either or. Just wanted to say that this is one of the best group of commentors I've seen (or more accurately, "read") in a long time. Awesome 👏🏼

aleandwine1935
najdorf96 wrote:

indeed. I'm against either or. Just wanted to say that this is one of the best group of commentors I've seen (or more accurately, "read") in a long time. Awesome 👏🏼

I agree! I am fortunate that this is my first attempt of writing a forum post.

ThrillerFan
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

The marginal objective inferiority of 1...b6 redeems itself by the fact that most people have no clear idea how to play against it. The result being that knowledge of territory becomes more important than the decision to actually play it. There are recurring themes 1...b6. Then if white goes really passive, black can doubledown with passivity and play the Hippo.

Not true - the Owen's is easy to play against, it's a very familiar situation that pops up in all kinds of openings. The Owen's is just a superior version of the queen's indian or several other openings. People also play it a fair bit online, so white can get experience in it and know the themes pretty well.

There are lots of annoying variations that act as you describe, where all opening preparation goes out the window, and you should be better and yet you don't know how to play the position so lose the marginal advantage you had. If you can't get a great position out of the opening in the Owen's you have absolutely messed up.

you just suck at playing it. its not an inferior qid same way the english defense is not an inferior QID, different ideas. Just because you can play your 7 move reply agaisnt patzers and get a good position doesnt make an opening bad.

imagine judging a philidor, based only on the noobies that play at the lower levels and not how masters play it.

To say Owen's is an inferior QID is ridiculous because the two don't even compare. It is, however, an inferior opening as a whole.

The comparison to make is the Owen's is inferior to the English defense in similar manner to how the Pirc is inferior to the Kings Indian.

If the move c4 (in conjunction with e4) is played, the d4 pawn and d4 square are severely weakened. That is precisely what the Kings Indian pounces on. Now the Owen's and English Defenses both try to pounce on e4. With c4 already played, there is no good way to protect e4 with the Knight (hence why you see early Bd3 moves in these openings, but that opens up tactics with ...f5 due to g2), and so putting the Knight on d2 in the English Defense still allows for Bb4 (to threaten e4 again) and now weakens d4 too as it blocks the Queen from guarding d4. So there is legitimate logic behind the English Defense going full blast after e4.

But in the Owen's Defense, like in the Pirc, White has not played c4. This is a worse scenario for Black. White can play Nd2, like in the Tarrasch French, and c3, to both bolster d4 and block any bishop pin, making the Knight a defender of e4, and early f5 moves don't work because the Bishop is still at home covering g2. Just that slight delay causes problems for Black in looking for a waiting move if he doesn't want to block his f-pawn with Nf6. Get the Knight out to f3 and then Bd3 is a complete non-issue.

And so 1.e4 b6?! 2.d4 Bb7 3.Nd2! and now if 3...c5, do not play 4.c3? as 4...cxd4 5.cxd4 Bb4 leads to Black's same baloney. 4.Ngf3! and then depending on what Black does, white will in some order play Bd3, c3, O-O, Re1 (the d3-Bishop and Rook will alleviate the knight of its duties, can get out of the way, and you can develop your queenside pieces. The delay in queenside development is no different than in the Colle or French Tarrasch.

The fact that White has not played c4 makes all the difference in the world (in White's favor).

In essence, Owen's Defense is a one trick pony defense looking to con 2 moves out of White. c4 and f3. The tactics for Black simply work if White plays those moves, especially f3. If White knows how to hold the e-pawn without playing f3, and knows to take an early trade on d4 back with the knight instead of c-pawn, Black's game is miserable.

darkunorthodox88
ThrillerFan wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

The marginal objective inferiority of 1...b6 redeems itself by the fact that most people have no clear idea how to play against it. The result being that knowledge of territory becomes more important than the decision to actually play it. There are recurring themes 1...b6. Then if white goes really passive, black can doubledown with passivity and play the Hippo.

Not true - the Owen's is easy to play against, it's a very familiar situation that pops up in all kinds of openings. The Owen's is just a superior version of the queen's indian or several other openings. People also play it a fair bit online, so white can get experience in it and know the themes pretty well.

There are lots of annoying variations that act as you describe, where all opening preparation goes out the window, and you should be better and yet you don't know how to play the position so lose the marginal advantage you had. If you can't get a great position out of the opening in the Owen's you have absolutely messed up.

you just suck at playing it. its not an inferior qid same way the english defense is not an inferior QID, different ideas. Just because you can play your 7 move reply agaisnt patzers and get a good position doesnt make an opening bad.

imagine judging a philidor, based only on the noobies that play at the lower levels and not how masters play it.

To say Owen's is an inferior QID is ridiculous because the two don't even compare. It is, however, an inferior opening as a whole.

The comparison to make is the Owen's is inferior to the English defense in similar manner to how the Pirc is inferior to the Kings Indian.

If the move c4 (in conjunction with e4) is played, the d4 pawn and d4 square are severely weakened. That is precisely what the Kings Indian pounces on. Now the Owen's and English Defenses both try to pounce on e4. With c4 already played, there is no good way to protect e4 with the Knight (hence why you see early Bd3 moves in these openings, but that opens up tactics with ...f5 due to g2), and so putting the Knight on d2 in the English Defense still allows for Bb4 (to threaten e4 again) and now weakens d4 too as it blocks the Queen from guarding d4. So there is legitimate logic behind the English Defense going full blast after e4.

But in the Owen's Defense, like in the Pirc, White has not played c4. This is a worse scenario for Black. White can play Nd2, like in the Tarrasch French, and c3, to both bolster d4 and block any bishop pin, making the Knight a defender of e4, and early f5 moves don't work because the Bishop is still at home covering g2. Just that slight delay causes problems for Black in looking for a waiting move if he doesn't want to block his f-pawn with Nf6. Get the Knight out to f3 and then Bd3 is a complete non-issue.

And so 1.e4 b6?! 2.d4 Bb7 3.Nd2! and now if 3...c5, do not play 4.c3? as 4...cxd4 5.cxd4 Bb4 leads to Black's same baloney. 4.Ngf3! and then depending on what Black does, white will in some order play Bd3, c3, O-O, Re1 (the d3-Bishop and Rook will alleviate the knight of its duties, can get out of the way, and you can develop your queenside pieces. The delay in queenside development is no different than in the Colle or French Tarrasch.

The fact that White has not played c4 makes all the difference in the world (in White's favor).

In essence, Owen's Defense is a one trick pony defense looking to con 2 moves out of White. c4 and f3. The tactics for Black simply work if White plays those moves, especially f3. If White knows how to hold the e-pawn without playing f3, and knows to take an early trade on d4 back with the knight instead of c-pawn, Black's game is miserable.

4 moves of analysis with a 4 move follow up with no mention of how black is to play ! very persuasive

i never even heard of anyone play 3...c5 vs nd2 since d5! just leaves white better

Compadre_J

The Funny part is I think the Owens Defense has been my weakness.

I play 1.e4 exclusively and my win & draw rate is surprising very low against 1.b6.

Compared to all other responses the 1.b6 seems to be only line giving me trouble which is sort of funny.

I think the reason why is because I haven’t found a great response to it which I enjoy.

I absolutely hate the main line.

Bd3 makes me cringe. I just can’t play that line.

Ethan_Brollier
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

The marginal objective inferiority of 1...b6 redeems itself by the fact that most people have no clear idea how to play against it. The result being that knowledge of territory becomes more important than the decision to actually play it. There are recurring themes 1...b6. Then if white goes really passive, black can doubledown with passivity and play the Hippo.

Not true - the Owen's is easy to play against, it's a very familiar situation that pops up in all kinds of openings. The Owen's is just a superior version of the queen's indian or several other openings. People also play it a fair bit online, so white can get experience in it and know the themes pretty well.

There are lots of annoying variations that act as you describe, where all opening preparation goes out the window, and you should be better and yet you don't know how to play the position so lose the marginal advantage you had. If you can't get a great position out of the opening in the Owen's you have absolutely messed up.

you just suck at playing it. its not an inferior qid same way the english defense is not an inferior QID, different ideas. Just because you can play your 7 move reply agaisnt patzers and get a good position doesnt make an opening bad.

imagine judging a philidor, based only on the noobies that play at the lower levels and not how masters play it.

Not sure I'd say the Owen's is anywhere near as solid as a Philidor, English, or especially QID. Those are all second or third string defenses, while the Owen's is... not one of those things.

I have yet to find a single variation of the 3. Bd3 line that doesn't promise pain and suffering to the Black player. And looking through the Lichess Masters database, it doesn't seem like anyone else has either. Even in lines where White is not playing the best moves White still is scoring around or above 60 points in just about all of them.

Spooky_Pumpkin

I love b3 and b6

Ziggy_Zugzwang

After 1e4 b6 2d4 Bb7 3Bd3, I like Nf6 for black — Blatny's move; his supposed “Ruy Lopez”…

So 1e4 b6 2d4 Bb7 3Bd3 Nf6 4Qe2 Nc6 5c3 (to prevent Nb4) e5

From a psychological POV, white — who one presumes may usually open 1e4 — may be forced to play d5 at some point. This suggests more of d pawn opening, and so possibly out of white’s comfort zone. White may find himself playing against a KID type formation…

darkunorthodox88
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

The marginal objective inferiority of 1...b6 redeems itself by the fact that most people have no clear idea how to play against it. The result being that knowledge of territory becomes more important than the decision to actually play it. There are recurring themes 1...b6. Then if white goes really passive, black can doubledown with passivity and play the Hippo.

Not true - the Owen's is easy to play against, it's a very familiar situation that pops up in all kinds of openings. The Owen's is just a superior version of the queen's indian or several other openings. People also play it a fair bit online, so white can get experience in it and know the themes pretty well.

There are lots of annoying variations that act as you describe, where all opening preparation goes out the window, and you should be better and yet you don't know how to play the position so lose the marginal advantage you had. If you can't get a great position out of the opening in the Owen's you have absolutely messed up.

you just suck at playing it. its not an inferior qid same way the english defense is not an inferior QID, different ideas. Just because you can play your 7 move reply agaisnt patzers and get a good position doesnt make an opening bad.

imagine judging a philidor, based only on the noobies that play at the lower levels and not how masters play it.

Not sure I'd say the Owen's is anywhere near as solid as a Philidor, English, or especially QID. Those are all second or third string defenses, while the Owen's is... not one of those things.

I have yet to find a single variation of the 3. Bd3 line that doesn't promise pain and suffering to the Black player. And looking through the Lichess Masters database, it doesn't seem like anyone else has either. Even in lines where White is not playing the best moves White still is scoring around or above 60 points in just about all of them.

what is this mythical line which gives you so much pain? because the above statement is just plain false. The philidor may objectively have a lower eval (as in less advantage for white) but it pays for that in passivity and no real promise for space unless white allows it. The english defense is many things but "Solid" is not one of them, its the most "must-win" defense that you can try vs 1.d4 2.c4 and in fact its quite risky with some lines ignoring like 3 opening principles one after the other. in fact, a lot of what used to be main lines in the english have been computer refuted

darkunorthodox88
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

After 1e4 b6 2d4 Bb7 3Bd3, I like Nf6 for black — Blatny's move; his supposed “Ruy Lopez”…

So 1e4 b6 2d4 Bb7 3Bd3 Nf6 4Qe2 Nc6 5c3 (to prevent Nb4) e5

From a psychological POV, white — who one presumes may usually open 1e4 — may be forced to play d5 at some point. This suggests more of d pawn opening, and so possibly out of white’s comfort zone. White may find himself playing against a KID type formation…

the nc6 stuff makes no sense to me, after e5, d5, you get an e5 nimzowitsch where b6 bb7 is more misplaced than the bd3 qe2 , not to mention the c5 bishop just gets traded off

Ziggy_Zugzwang

If every player I faced was of your strength of higher on a regular basis maybe I might change my ways. Having said that, I think Blatny was/is above your paygrade. My point is that the pawn structure "may" be unfamiliar to the player most of us may face who normally play 1e4. Chess, like politics(?), is the art of the possible(?) :-)

Blatny profile and games:

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=10113

Ethan_Brollier
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

After 1e4 b6 2d4 Bb7 3Bd3, I like Nf6 for black — Blatny's move; his supposed “Ruy Lopez”…

So 1e4 b6 2d4 Bb7 3Bd3 Nf6 4Qe2 Nc6 5c3 (to prevent Nb4) e5

From a psychological POV, white — who one presumes may usually open 1e4 — may be forced to play d5 at some point. This suggests more of d pawn opening, and so possibly out of white’s comfort zone. White may find himself playing against a KID type formation…

the nc6 stuff makes no sense to me, after e5, d5, you get an e5 nimzowitsch where b6 bb7 is more misplaced than the bd3 qe2 , not to mention the c5 bishop just gets traded off

My thoughts exactly here.