Alternative to the Ruy

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MainlineNovelty
Fiveofswords wrote:
lolurspammed wrote:

Which vienna? The vienna gambit with f4 or the bc4 or g3 lines?

they are all reasonable.

3 f4?! IMO is better for Black. The other two are perfectly fine choices though.

MainlineNovelty
Fiveofswords wrote:
MainlineNovelty wrote:
Fiveofswords wrote:
lolurspammed wrote:

Which vienna? The vienna gambit with f4 or the bc4 or g3 lines?

they are all reasonable.

3 f4?! IMO is better for Black. The other two are perfectly fine choices though.

3 f4 is objectively the weakest of the three I agree but its tricky and worth playing. It kinda depends on blacks 2nd move though heh.

Its ironic that you say that though because i thought you liked the kings gambit

No I do like the King's Gambit, but the f4 Vienna is different, because 3...d5! is just =/+ if Black knows a bit of theory (and not Black might be slightly better but White has practical comp like in some KG lines)

But yeah, 3 f4 is only dubious after 2...Nf6.

TheGreatOogieBoogie

The good thing about 4.d4 however is it's not the Four Knights and doesn't involve moving the same piece twice.  With a symmetrical pawn structure and opposite colored bishops it really should have drawn but he didn't hurry and realized his plan. I just say go with the Ruy, but even here the Marshall Attack and Berlin Wall lead to equality.  Many GMs jumped ship to 1.d4 because of the Berlin.  In the ensuing queenless middlegame white should calculate concrete variations and play actively.  In one of Kasparov's victories over Kramnik during the WCC he even sacrificed a pawn for activity (though Kasparov lost the overall match) But alas, progress marches on and 9.Nc3,Ke8 10.h3,h5! is the new mainline.

MainlineNovelty
TheGreatOogieBoogie wrote:

 In one of Kasparov's victories over Kramnik during the WCC 

??????

lolurspammed

I realize that it requires calculation but I also play the Najdorf, the Cochrane Gambit, the advance Caro with h4, love the white side of the French Winawer, and love the Nf6 scotch as well as the KID/Benoni structures which are also considered tactical openings.

PS: As ironic as it may be, some of my most exciting, tactical games have come from the Ruy Lopez, even though most people think its boring

TheGreatOogieBoogie
Fiveofswords wrote:
TheGreatOogieBoogie wrote:

The good thing about 4.d4 however is it's not the Four Knights and doesn't involve moving the same piece twice.  With a symmetrical pawn structure and opposite colored bishops it really should have drawn but he didn't hurry and realized his plan. I just say go with the Ruy, but even here the Marshall Attack and Berlin Wall lead to equality.  Many GMs jumped ship to 1.d4 because of the Berlin.  In the ensuing queenless middlegame white should calculate concrete variations and play actively.  In one of Kasparov's victories over Kramnik during the WCC he even sacrificed a pawn for activity (though Kasparov lost the overall match) But alas, progress marches on and 9.Nc3,Ke8 10.h3,h5! is the new mainline.

3 Bc4 made it not the ruy lopez, not 4 d4. 4. d4 is a fine move...but totally not relevant to berlin wall theory. 5 0-0 made it the classical 2 knights which can be very drawish with the way black chose to play. moves 3 4 and 5 all had other options that are extremely different from each other.

I know, just wanted to give something specific for the Two Knights, otherwise 3...Bc5! 4.c3 or 4.b4.  What I'm trying to say above is black has easy equality in any 1.e4,e5 system if he knows the theory.

  The OP of course needs something more difinitive than a vague "just play 3.Bc4 with an Italian") and the Berlin mention was a compare and contrast (true it is irrelevant to the classical two knights)



lolurspammed

And all this time I thought e5 was boring! Boy was I wrong.. :(

MainlineNovelty
Fiveofswords wrote:

...e5 is definitely not boring.

TheGreatOogieBoogie
MainlineNovelty wrote:
TheGreatOogieBoogie wrote:

 In one of Kasparov's victories over Kramnik during the WCC 

??????

Regarding the Berlin Defence, which is why many GMs say 1.e4 is easy equality with 1...e5.  The specific game in question is here (no it's not a world championship game it was in Astana)



lolurspammed

Why won't GM's go for the Italian Gambit? Looks so cool.

MainlineNovelty

Not enough room to outplay the opponent (or sometimes just unsoundness)

lolurspammed

In a must win situation, it would be nice to see an Evans Gambit or Max Lange Attack..I would say Danish too but that's kinda drawish in many lines.

MainlineNovelty
lolurspammed wrote:

In a must win situation, it would be nice to see an Evans Gambit or Max Lange Attack..I would say Danish too but that's kinda drawish in many lines.

Often the best approach in a must-win situation is to slowly pursue a small advantage without taking risks (compare Karpov-Kasparov 1985 Game 24 and Kasparov-Karpov 1987 Game 24)

MainlineNovelty
Fiveofswords wrote:
lolurspammed wrote:

In a must win situation, it would be nice to see an Evans Gambit or Max Lange Attack..I would say Danish too but that's kinda drawish in many lines.

i dont know how the danish is drawish 

I think he's referring to 3...d5

lolurspammed

I'm referring to the line that virtually everyone plays against the Danish nowadays.

lolurspammed

Caro Kann is the least drawish opening for me along with the philidor.

MainlineNovelty
Fiveofswords wrote:
MainlineNovelty wrote:
Fiveofswords wrote:
lolurspammed wrote:

In a must win situation, it would be nice to see an Evans Gambit or Max Lange Attack..I would say Danish too but that's kinda drawish in many lines.

i dont know how the danish is drawish 

I think he's referring to 3...d5

4 Bxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3!? is playable. 5 Bxf7 is drawish, but not forced.

No I meant 3...d5 not 5...d5 (although the latter is good as well imo)

MainlineNovelty
Fiveofswords wrote:

well 3...d5 is a fine move but i dont see how its drawish...plenty of play left

I haven't looked at the Danish/Goring complex in a while, but I recall some equal ending in the 3...d5 main line

lolurspammed

Is the Goering the half danish?

MainlineNovelty
lolurspammed wrote:

Is the Goering the half danish?

I'm not totally clear on the nomenclature of these gambit lines, but I think the Goring is 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 ed 4 c3 dc (4...d5!? transposes to 3...d5!? in the Danish) is the Goring.