Beginner? Don't use this opening - It's too theoretical! Better yet, don't learn any openings!

Sort:
chamo2074

I actually dsicovered this:

 

aMazeMove
B1ZMARK wrote:

I hate this argument. 

Usually, sometimes people ask on the forums, "Hey, I'm a beginner, and I want to play the XXX opening, does anyone have tips?"

Now there are three types of people who respond. The first is the one who says, "this opening is too theoretical and so you shouldn't learn it as a beginner". The second type of person says "You don't need opening theory at your level, opening principles will serve you well". And the last type of person actually answers the question.

"It's too theoretical"

This argument is easily refuted. Your opponent, if you are a beginner, will NOT be refuting your unsound modern benoni defense with the latest Stockfish novelty recommended by GM Coris Avrukh on move 22. So if neither player knows theory, then you just have a game of chess. 

And these people often imply that you should learn all the theory at once. Ridiculous. That's not how learning works. You don't simply pick up the ruy lopez as black and one day decide, "If my opponent plays the Zaitsev, then I'm going to do this, and if he tries to go with the Breyer, I can do this, and if he tries the Marshall, I can avoid it with a4..." No. Learning is an incremental process, you learn a little theory, you play some games, and you update your theory. And if you're like me, who doesn't learn any mainline openings at all, by the time you actually get to the "2000+ range" (the most common threshold these people say) then it will actually be EXTREMELY HARD to learn theory! Because all of your opponents know it much better than you! And do you know why? It's because they've spent MUCH LONGER playing, analyzing, and understanding this "theoretical" opening than you have! 

"You only need opening principles at your level"

The logic is that since you're a beginner, you shouldn't waste time learning openings because you can't play chess if you're hanging a piece on move 7. But are you really going to tell me that if this person doesn't even know what he's playing, that would be good for him? If you have studied the positions better than your opponent, don't you think you'll get an advantage? It doesn't actually matter if you blow the advantage away later. One problem at a time - you can't win without getting an advantage, and the opening is the first part of the game, meaning you can easily work on them by playing some blitz and looking at your opening play afterward. Then, you can learn more about converting advantages. 

And notice, I'm not saying someone should memorize opening moves. That's stupid. I'm quite sure no beginner under 1300 rating would be memorizing moves, especially if they want to learn an opening. These kinds of assumptions are actually very unrealistic.

------------

Thanks for reading, assuming you actually read it.

beginners should not even learn openings at all, they should improve tactics, know all the rules, and progress from there. I would say the place you start learning openings (sort of) is about 800-1000.

JackRoach

You need to know opening basics though.

Or else you can't even get out your pieces.

sndeww

Funny thing is, I've even heard someone say "You don't need openings at your level" when the person in question was 1600.

chamo2074
B1ZMARK wrote:

Funny thing is, I've even heard someone say "You don't need openings at your level" when the person in question was 1600.

That guy is probably not arrogant at all

sndeww

if i remember correctly it was IMBacon

chamo2074

@IMBacon

chamo2074

I think this guy just copy pastes the same essay about beginners in every beginner thread

sndeww

Honestly, yeah...

aMazeMove
JackRoach wrote:

You need to know opening basics though.

Or else you can't even get out your pieces.

sure, just know: e4 nf3 bc4 nc3 and your done

Valleta-Chan
aMazeMove wrote:
B1ZMARK wrote:

I hate this argument. 

Usually, sometimes people ask on the forums, "Hey, I'm a beginner, and I want to play the XXX opening, does anyone have tips?"

Now there are three types of people who respond. The first is the one who says, "this opening is too theoretical and so you shouldn't learn it as a beginner". The second type of person says "You don't need opening theory at your level, opening principles will serve you well". And the last type of person actually answers the question.

"It's too theoretical"

This argument is easily refuted. Your opponent, if you are a beginner, will NOT be refuting your unsound modern benoni defense with the latest Stockfish novelty recommended by GM Coris Avrukh on move 22. So if neither player knows theory, then you just have a game of chess. 

And these people often imply that you should learn all the theory at once. Ridiculous. That's not how learning works. You don't simply pick up the ruy lopez as black and one day decide, "If my opponent plays the Zaitsev, then I'm going to do this, and if he tries to go with the Breyer, I can do this, and if he tries the Marshall, I can avoid it with a4..." No. Learning is an incremental process, you learn a little theory, you play some games, and you update your theory. And if you're like me, who doesn't learn any mainline openings at all, by the time you actually get to the "2000+ range" (the most common threshold these people say) then it will actually be EXTREMELY HARD to learn theory! Because all of your opponents know it much better than you! And do you know why? It's because they've spent MUCH LONGER playing, analyzing, and understanding this "theoretical" opening than you have! 

"You only need opening principles at your level"

The logic is that since you're a beginner, you shouldn't waste time learning openings because you can't play chess if you're hanging a piece on move 7. But are you really going to tell me that if this person doesn't even know what he's playing, that would be good for him? If you have studied the positions better than your opponent, don't you think you'll get an advantage? It doesn't actually matter if you blow the advantage away later. One problem at a time - you can't win without getting an advantage, and the opening is the first part of the game, meaning you can easily work on them by playing some blitz and looking at your opening play afterward. Then, you can learn more about converting advantages. 

And notice, I'm not saying someone should memorize opening moves. That's stupid. I'm quite sure no beginner under 1300 rating would be memorizing moves, especially if they want to learn an opening. These kinds of assumptions are actually very unrealistic.

------------

Thanks for reading, assuming you actually read it.

beginners should not even learn openings at all, they should improve tactics, know all the rules, and progress from there. I would say the place you start learning openings (sort of) is about 800-1000.

Lol thing is though you have to win games through strategy and position and n tactical knowledge combined,  tactical knowledge is needed but can only be used if you get to the position necessary for that tactic. Opening principles are needed so you can reach good positions; when playing a 800 for example, I can easily gobble up his pieces because he plays illogical moves while against a 1800 I get constant pressure, get squashed a bad position, and in those position tactics are all but useless for me.


 

Flip217

I'm quite the raw beginner here, but as somebody with 25+ years in training and education, I'll say that different people learn best in different ways.  What's a waste of time for one person is incredibly productive for another; perhaps studying & memorizing openings helps one sort of Chess Beginner, while for another it prevents them from gaining deeper knowledge and truly improving their game.  Interesting topic for sure!

aMazeMove
MeanFreePath2 wrote:
aMazeMove wrote:
B1ZMARK wrote:

I hate this argument. 

Usually, sometimes people ask on the forums, "Hey, I'm a beginner, and I want to play the XXX opening, does anyone have tips?"

Now there are three types of people who respond. The first is the one who says, "this opening is too theoretical and so you shouldn't learn it as a beginner". The second type of person says "You don't need opening theory at your level, opening principles will serve you well". And the last type of person actually answers the question.

"It's too theoretical"

This argument is easily refuted. Your opponent, if you are a beginner, will NOT be refuting your unsound modern benoni defense with the latest Stockfish novelty recommended by GM Coris Avrukh on move 22. So if neither player knows theory, then you just have a game of chess. 

And these people often imply that you should learn all the theory at once. Ridiculous. That's not how learning works. You don't simply pick up the ruy lopez as black and one day decide, "If my opponent plays the Zaitsev, then I'm going to do this, and if he tries to go with the Breyer, I can do this, and if he tries the Marshall, I can avoid it with a4..." No. Learning is an incremental process, you learn a little theory, you play some games, and you update your theory. And if you're like me, who doesn't learn any mainline openings at all, by the time you actually get to the "2000+ range" (the most common threshold these people say) then it will actually be EXTREMELY HARD to learn theory! Because all of your opponents know it much better than you! And do you know why? It's because they've spent MUCH LONGER playing, analyzing, and understanding this "theoretical" opening than you have! 

"You only need opening principles at your level"

The logic is that since you're a beginner, you shouldn't waste time learning openings because you can't play chess if you're hanging a piece on move 7. But are you really going to tell me that if this person doesn't even know what he's playing, that would be good for him? If you have studied the positions better than your opponent, don't you think you'll get an advantage? It doesn't actually matter if you blow the advantage away later. One problem at a time - you can't win without getting an advantage, and the opening is the first part of the game, meaning you can easily work on them by playing some blitz and looking at your opening play afterward. Then, you can learn more about converting advantages. 

And notice, I'm not saying someone should memorize opening moves. That's stupid. I'm quite sure no beginner under 1300 rating would be memorizing moves, especially if they want to learn an opening. These kinds of assumptions are actually very unrealistic.

------------

Thanks for reading, assuming you actually read it.

beginners should not even learn openings at all, they should improve tactics, know all the rules, and progress from there. I would say the place you start learning openings (sort of) is about 800-1000.

Lol thing is though you have to win games through strategy and position and n tactical knowledge combined,  tactical knowledge is needed but can only be used if you get to the position necessary for that tactic. Opening principles are needed so you can reach good positions; when playing a 800 for example, I can easily gobble up his pieces because he plays illogical moves while against a 1800 I get constant pressure, get squashed a bad position, and in those position tactics are all but useless for me.


 

beginners really should focus and tactics, what's the point of getting a space advantage and a winning plan, if you blunder back rank mate?

aMazeMove
while against a 1800 I get constant pressure, get squashed a bad position, and in those position tactics are all but useless for me.

 

doesn't happen to me meh.png

Valleta-Chan
aMazeMove wrote:
while against a 1800 I get constant pressure, get squashed a bad position, and in those position tactics are all but useless for me.

 

doesn't happen to me

That's the same thing that 1800s think of me, and what I think of 800s.

sndeww
aMazeMove wrote:

beginners really should focus and tactics, what's the point of getting a space advantage and a winning plan, if you blunder back rank mate?

would you really want to be:

The person who gets a winning position

or

The person who cheeses his opponent in a losing position?

FrogCDE

There's no point in learning a super-sophisticated line of the Ruy Lopez or the King's Indian if you don't understand it. True, opponents at the same level as you may not be able to take advantage of your mistakes, but why play positions you don't understand? You won't learn anything about openings that way. Whereas if you pick something like an Italian Game or my favourite Vienna, you can come in time to understand the ideas.

Valleta-Chan

true, but what you said may not be the biggest reason not to learn complicated lines - even if you do learn a super sophisticated line, would beginners really play the correct replies though? They'd probably diverge around move 2-4 and you'd be lost.

2000Knights

That's like saying that gambits are bad.

sndeww
FrogCDE wrote:

There's no point in learning a super-sophisticated line of the Ruy Lopez or the King's Indian if you don't understand it. True, opponents at the same level as you may not be able to take advantage of your mistakes, but why play positions you don't understand? You won't learn anything about openings that way. Whereas if you pick something like an Italian Game or my favourite Vienna, you can come in time to understand the ideas.

if you wait to learn it then you'll never understand it.