The first is the Veresov, which is actually quite tricky (the one time I got it played against me OTB I got blown off the board). The normal line is 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 Nbd7, but I don't think Black gets more than equality, if he can reach that. White hopes to play f3 and e4, sometimes but not always involving a gambit.
In the second I always played 2...Nc6 3.Bc4 g6. Who knows whether that is "best" -- in most of those games that doesn't really matter.
I'm pretty sure the first one is a perfectly valid opening, if rarely used at higher levels.
As for the second...well, I'm not a particularly strong player but I'd poke away the queen with Nf6. Is there something weak about that move? I agree that Qf6 is highly premature though.
I'm pretty sure the first one is a perfectly valid opening, if rarely used at higher levels.
As for the second...well, I'm not a particularly strong player but I'd poke away the queen with Nf6. Is there something weak about that move? I agree that Qf6 is highly premature though.
1 e4 e5 2Qh5 Nf6 3Qxe5+ that's why Nc6 is best.
After 1. d4 d5 2. Nc3, any number of moves will work. 2...Nf6 seems the most natural to me. I wouldn't go about calling 1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 a "noob opening," though. I know what you mean about it killing the purpose (I think you're talking about the c3 knight blocking the possibility of an early c4 break) of the queen's pawn opening, but it is just not true. White puts a pawn in the center and then develops his knight, pressuring black's own center pawn - it can't get any more natural than that.
In fact, after 1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 (the most common continuation after 1. d4 d5 2. Nc3), white does fine. White scores just a bit over 50% in my 10000~ database games with this line. There are other continuations than 2...Nf6 which give white a better or worse score but the sample sizes are much smaller and so are less relevant.
Anyway- all this to say, 2. Nc3 is a perfectly good move.
1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 on the other hand...
What's interesting is that 2...Nf6, the knee-jerk reaction that many beginners using 2. Qh5 are actually crossing their fingers for, is a perfectly playable pawn sacrifice for black. If you choose this continuation though, you must be uncompromising and take advantage of white's awkward queen placement after 1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 Nf6 3. Qxe5+ Be7 (you are already destined to gain tempo with simple developping moves like Nc6 anyway - but it's not enough. you must try and take advantage of the early development advantage to gain some kind of attack or initiative.) Here's a model continuation to give you an idea of the kind of game black gets:
1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 Nf6 3. Qxe5+ Be7 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. Qg3 0-0 and black is castled with 3 developped pieces while white has a queen and a knight out and is still at least 2 moves from being able to castle on either side - although white has an unopposed center pawn for now, and has 2 center pawns to black's 1. I'd say the position is definitely playable for black, but I personally would rather play more solidly...
1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 Nc6 feels like the most natural response to me, just developping and defending the pawn. 3. Bc4 (the inevitable follow up, and without a doubt the best move for white at this point).
Here are 2 different schemes to answer the threat on f7:
1) Simply play 3...g6 immediately, blocking mate, kicking the queen away, & preparing for the development of the king's bishop on g7 to make sure that the dark squares around the castled position are not too weak.
2) Play 3...Qe7 to simply defend the f7 square and solve the problem of your now blocked in king's bishop later. Note that after 3...Qe7 you are still left with a bunch of moves to make before castling (1. open up the bishop 2. develop bishop 3. develop knight) but fortunately for you, your opponent has conveniently put his queen where your knight can develop with tempo. White's initiative is not enduring and his advantage definitely dries out after something like 1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 Nc6 3. Bc4 Qe7 4. Nc3 Nf6.
All this said, my favorite scheme is to play g6 immediately. It is the more popular option. Here's a game with Kasparov making a draw (against Woody Harrelson!) using scheme#2:
http://www.worldchesslinks.org/players_games/harrelson/dgt_chesstheatre.htm
I hope this was helpful to you.
The first, and most important step in defending against "noob" openings is to respect them, and the person playing them. No single opening move produces a losing position. Even grandmasters venture unusual openings sometimes -- in particular, GM Nakamura, currently the strongest player in the US, regularly plays 1.e4 e5 2.Qh5 in blitz, and KILLS people with it. You do yourself no favors by assuming your opponent is an idiot.
It sounds like that may be a big leap for you, considering the attitude of the topic title, but it's critical. The biggest reason people run into problems against offbeat openings is because they think an unusual opening is a sign of weakness and/or disrespect, and go berserk trying to blast their opponents off the board... which plays right into a hypermodern counterpunching strategy.
Better is to remain calm, and alert. Play to control the center, and develop your pieces logically. Consider what central pawn breaks your opponent's position provides for. If your opponent is willing to concede your easy development to get you out of book, you'll have a comfortable game from there.
Just because you prefer Qf6, doesn't mean it's not a pile of poo. Did the queen ask the poor Ng8 about this choice of square?
1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 was a favorite line of Tchigorin, so it can't be all bad. While it is seldom seen because it is considered weaker than 2. c4 and because it is thought to be a positional fault to block the c-pawn in a Q-pawn opening, it is a playable opening. There is no direct refutation; it has to be played against positionally, usually by black enforcing c5 and opening the queen bishop file for himself.
The other example, 1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 is answered most simply by 2. ... Nf6 attacking the wayward queen with gain of time.
Second example, I forgot, 2. ... Nc6 is best as others said, the attack on the queen with gain of time comes the next move.
Just because you prefer Qf6, doesn't mean it's not a pile of poo. Did the queen ask the poor Ng8 about this choice of square?
lol Great comment. Rich, b6 and Qf6 are both utter crap. Do yourself and others a favour by either choosing to learn something when corrected, or stop possibly misleading others with your patzerish suggestions.
Against noob openings, you have to think and play well. However your reward will be a very nice position. But you have to why a move is bad to prove it bad and if it just looks bad and you don't know how to play against it it's as if they played a normal move.
Qf6 isn't too bad since White moved his queen to a non-central square, really. The White Queen will have to move away eventually, but it doesn't necessarily work the same way for the Black Queen.
The problem with ...Qf6 is that, because black's queen has illogically moved, there is no real way to punish white's play in any way.
hmm, am I the only one that likes the (maybe dubious) 1. e4 e5 2. Qh5 Nf6!? 3. Qxe5 Be7 with the idea of gaining more tempo chasing the queen? It's just as nice as many other gambits for black, and really throws people off guard.
there is a good video by dennis monokroussos on chessvideos.tv about that opening called "knocking out the matrix". I think it is still available for free users. http://www.chessvideos.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5912
Well, neither of these is an opening that allows black to reach a huge advantage or anything.
The first is actually quite tricky and interesting, if not as good, as 2.c4. It's generaly considered easier for black to reach equality, but he must be wary of various tricks in that line.
As for the second, 2.Qh5 2...Nc6 has the effect of almost giving first move to black (after queen retreats later), if black plays well, but you can't expect anything more. So none of these is a really BAD opening, although the second one ....you have no reason to play it without a very special idea/preparation in mind.
I know Nakamura plays it, but does anyone know what his plan is with the move?
This gentleman's blog must be the definitive source for Nakamura's (Smallville's) games on ICC. You have to search into the archives for the games with this opening but I saw plenty of them there.
http://cheszpatzerblog.blogspot.com/2009/10/gm-hikaru-nakamura-break-barriers-at.html
Incidentally, i came across this opening in a recent chess notes:
‘His ingenuity was shown in his analysis of what he quaintly called the Danvers Opening (1 P-K4 P-K4 2 Q-R5) showing that this childish-appearing line of play had far greater resources than had been thought. Here he showed his aversion to routine thinking and perhaps may be said to have anticipated by 15 years the discoveries of the hyper-modern school.’
A link to hypermodernism is hardly appropriate, but contemporary corroboration exists that Southard did indeed name the opening 1 e4 e5 2 Qh5 after the Danvers Insane Hospital. See pages 96-97 of Chess Explorations."
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:IrcHvEnsTjMJ:www.chesshistory.com/winter/+site:chesshistory.com/winter+danvers&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Here's a couple noob openings that I come up across. I'm wondering which lines get the biggest advantage.