In the Classical Dutch, we have a small problem - White can fianchetto his bishop before we do
Well.. not anymore:
What if Black tries to get smart with us?
Then he doesn't fight for the center at all... good players can exploit that I believe.
Bird's Opening - Classical Dutch
Sort:
Inspiration Game:
With CM Kingcrusher:
With Suren:
You are wrong on all counts!
Both sides decide the opening, not White or Black.
Just because the name was determined by a White or Black move means nothing.
White has numerous lines after 1.e4 c5
White has numerous lines after 1.e4 e6
Black has numerous lines after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5
Etc.
The same goes for 1.f4. Black can play:
1...e5
1...d5
1...c5
1...Nf6
1...g6
He only needs 1. White must know all 5.
It is not "out of Black's comfort zone" when you play 1.c4 or 1.f4 or 1.h4 or 1.Na3. It is amateurs like you that are naive enough to think that because you are too lazy to put in the effort to study the Flank openings. The highest rated player I ever beat over the board, I was Black and he opened 1.b3, he played a dubious line (11.Nd3 instead of 11.Nxc6, and he paid the price for it!
Also, Bird's Opening is not comparable to the Dutch because after 1.d4 f5, the e4-square is weakened by the d4 push.
Black has not advanced ...d5 and therefore e5 is not weak, and Black can play ...d6. All that is weak is White's King.
ThrillerFan wrote:
You are wrong on all counts!
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lol you're so cool. or warm.
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It is amateurs like you that are naive enough to think that because you are too lazy to put in the effort to study the Flank openings.
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I actually Do seek critism here, because I seek truth. Did you meant that my opponent won't be lazy and know the Bird/Classical so good that he'll refute me for playing a flank opening? I didn't quite get what you tried to say. [being lazy and all lol]
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Also, Bird's Opening is not comparable to the Dutch because after 1.d4 f5, the e4-square is weakened by the d4 push.
Black has not advanced ...d5 and therefore e5 is not weak, and Black can play ...d6. All that is weak is White's King.
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You mean, 1.f4, and since Black didn't play d5 yet - weakening the e5 sqr, he can play something else? You're right, in principle, like, the English Opening isn't really a Reversed Sicilian because Black doesn't have to play e5, right - e6 is very good there. You're right - just because the computer say to play "1...d5" doesn't mean Any opponent will play it. Okay great! Good point! Thank you! Please do share more stuff if you have - this really sets things straight. (I'm not being sarcastic, good job man!)
pfren wrote:
The Bird is fine, although the only flavour that appeals to me is the Leningrad Bird.
And of course, after 1.f4 e5!? accepting the From is far more testing that transposing to a King's gambit.
Thank you!
One thing please: Is the Leningrad Dutch really a King's Indian Defense 2 tempi up? [you don't need to move the knight, and then push the f pawn, and return the knight] or is it more complex than that?
okay cool. thank you!
I meant:
King's-Indian Defense:
You see these last 3 moves for Black - knight is moving, pawn forwards, knight returns.
Leningrad-Dutch Defense:
So now, the two knight-moves of the previous diagram, are not needed.
ThrillerFan wrote:
The highest rated player I ever beat over the board, I was Black and he opened 1.b3, he played a dubious line (11.Nd3 instead of 11.Nxc6, and he paid the price for it!
Sounds interesting. Please show the game if you have it saved somewhere.
Solmyr1234 wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
The highest rated player I ever beat over the board, I was Black and he opened 1.b3, he played a dubious line (11.Nd3 instead of 11.Nxc6, and he paid the price for it!
Sounds interesting. Please show the game if you have it saved somewhere.
It can be found in the following article I wrote in 2017 (final game of the four-game article - all 4 are worth a look, but the last one is the game referenced in the previous post).
http://charlottechesscenter.blogspot.com/2017/07/the-art-of-miracle-draw.html?m=0
Sorry, but I want to see the moves first, then the annotation. spoiled me lol.
cool! 
Solmyr1234 wrote:
okay cool. thank you!
I meant:
King's-Indian Defense:
You see these last 3 moves for Black - knight is moving, pawn forwards, knight returns.
Leningrad-Dutch Defense:
So now, the two knight-moves of the previous diagram, are not needed.
There is a MAJOR difference between the King's Indian and the Leningrad Dutch.
In the Leningrad Dutch, e6 is typically FAR MORE of a sore spot for Black than in the King's Indian.
King Safety is another major difference.
The Leningrad Dutch can often be won by direct attack to the Black King.
The King's Indian often requires White to shatter Black's Queenside instead, and win via defending his own King and getting Black into a completely lost endgame, often having either a material advantage or an unstoppable passed a-pawn.
It all has to do with the center. In the King's Indian, Black entices Whote to close the center first with Nc6 to force d5 out of White. Only then does he break with f5. It is like waiting for e5 in the French before playing c5. 3...c5 is right in the advance, and ok in the Tarrasch because of the misplaced d2 knight, but bad against 3.Nc3 because White has not locked the center yet. After e5, then Black plays c5.
Same concept here. The Leningrad sees an early commitment and weaknesses for Black.
Faster is not always better!
bird opening is a scary but very fun opening 🐧 I’m addicted to play it now🦃
Thank you, @ThrillerFan, that has been a lot of help, I do play French and King's Indian. and yes, faster isn't better - GM Naroditsky always say "slow build up, quick attack" or so, I truly believe in that. - same in life - mustering the forces.
Solmyr1234 wrote:
This opening isn't popular, and I can't figure out why.
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If the GingerGM has written books on the Classical Dutch, then at least the same respect should be given to the Bird's Opening - Classical Dutch.
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Who? And showing his face during the WCs...is the coast clear to show his face?
I disagree with solymr's recommendation to transpose into the king's gambit against the from. It's much more "manly" to take the pawn(s) and show black who's really boss!
The classical bird feels quite toothless to me. The fianchetto line doesn't quite equalize against accurate play by black (early g6). I enjoy the leningrad more, but the starting tempo usually means black can play some really troublesome moves. My personal least favorite that made me stop is the line that a local national master plays:
Isn't the Sturm Gambit of the Birds Opening: Dutch Variation (1.f4 1.d5 2.c4) just a queens gambit plus a dutch and that too a better QG ?
@B1ZMARK the line you give from the national master doesn't seem so bad. After trading the bishops Nc3 seems pretty equal. But even before that, on c6 or even Qb6+ doesn't d4 just solve the problems with that line, or am I missing something?
Okay, I gave it a try yesterday, as a conclusion, I agree with the masters - this isn't so hot, because, to make a long story short - your king is too vulnerable after f4 - you must take care of him quickly, and so this extra tempo isn't enough to allow you to take over the dark diagonal (in the Dutch, the light diagonal), and if you do it Anyway, then you king is weak, and all of your "attacking on the kingside" fantasies of the Classical Dutch, are gone. okay, I tried.
Cancel. Abort.
Besides, it's a matter of personal taste - and the bishop and rook stuck in their places, tastes funny...
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Okay,I haven't tried (for White) 1.Nf3, and Botvinnik System of the English Opening - which seem like an e4 opening, but e4 is protected. it also seem like a better version of the Stonewall Dutch:
https://www.chess.com/article/view/english-opening-botvinnik-system
King very safe, you can push the f pawn, okay so life isn't perfect - Black has a horse-stable (=a knight-outpost). as GM Naroditsky said - in these levels, if you want an omelette, you need to break some eggs.
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"Enjoy what you have rather than desiring what you don’t have. Just dreaming about nice things is meaningless—like chasing the wind." Ecclesiastes 6:9
I have a tournament Dutch Defense Against the Bird. Can I post the link ?
This opening isn't popular, and I can't figure out why.
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Introduction to beginners: When playing White, if you play the standard moves - e4, d4, then you need to know many openings, therefore some people prefer to avoid the center-luxury and play a flank opening - English Opening, Bird's Opening - where you still ctrl some center but now it's Your opening, and it's Black that is out of his comfort zone - not you, plus, you don't have to remember a dozen openings.
(The London System is actually a good hybrid - you play d4 and not flank moves - (c4 or f4), yet you can play it against almost anything. and... zzz...ZZZ...zzz... what? sorry, I fall a sleep. where was I ? Bird! let's continue)
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If the GingerGM has written books on the Classical Dutch, then at least the same respect should be given to the Bird's Opening - Classical Dutch.
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Question: But what about From's Gambit?
Answer:
1. Be a man and transform into the King's Gambit (this includes female players), that's right - learn the King's Gambit - you may one day even checkmate your opponent. someday. somehow. Don't worry - the Old Falkbeer counter-gambit is refuted, and the new one, just isn't scary - too tamed. (or you can simply learn the refutation to the gambit. gambits don't refute openings)
2. If there's a From's Gambit against the Bird, isn't there a From's Gambit against the regular Dutch? As usual in the Dutch, you can duck all the garbage by playing 1...e6, and only then 2...f5. so now it's 1...e3, and then 2...f4 - big deal...
From's Gambit in The Bird = Staunton Gambit in the Dutch.