Caro-Kann Advanced 3...c5

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BonTheCat
-waller- wrote:
wavaxa2 wrote:

c6..c5 might be a tempo loss, but isn't e4-e5 a tempo loss as well?

Don't think so - the pawn can move from c7-c5 in one move, but not from e2 to e5!

 

Arguably, e4-e5 is also a loss of tempo, since it's a not a given that it's always better to move your pawns two steps forward instead of one. Both e4-e5 and c6-c5 means that each player is refraining from developing a piece. As has been pointed out by several posters here already, compared to the normal French Advance, Black has saved a move (3...e6), while keeping the option of developing the light-squared bishop outside the pawn chain.

It's very much a case of personal preference. I do play the Caro-Kann, and I prefer the traditional 3...Bf5 to 3...c5, and the latter move has the advantage of cutting down White's options.

-waller-
BonTheCat wrote:

Arguably, e4-e5 is also a loss of tempo, since it's a not a given that it's always better to move your pawns two steps forward instead of one. Both e4-e5 and c6-c5 means that each player is refraining from developing a piece. As has been pointed out by several posters here already, compared to the normal French Advance, Black has saved a move (3...e6), while keeping the option of developing the light-squared bishop outside the pawn chain.

It's very much a case of personal preference. I do play the Caro-Kann, and I prefer the traditional 3...Bf5 to 3...c5, and the latter move has the advantage of cutting down White's options.

I think I understand what you're saying, I'm not sure I would class e4-e5 as a loss of tempo, since White gets the pawn to e5 in the minimum time, but it's true that c6-c5 is now justified somewhat, since White advanced so soon with the e-pawn. I think I would class c6-c5 as "losing a tempo" (purely on the technical basis it took two moves to get to a square it could reach in one), but it's of course compensated for by that fact and so a fine move - and as you point out Black has not committed to ...e6. I think losing a tempo is not necessarily "bad" in this context, more the idea is not to strike too early!

-waller-
Ginarook wrote:

So don't play bxp, go for that queenside instead with moves like a5 and b6, you might have to end up sacrificing a pawn, but you just get squashed if you don't

This is a game I am still playing with a similar theme, but against their other nasty little idea, be3-d4.

https://www.chess.com/daily/game/217472744

I think my position was worth a pawn after qxb6 ?!

Yeah, playing that way definitely makes sense to me, I actually lost a classical game where Black did that and I tried Be3-d4 (though mainly I got tricked in the opening around move 10.) It was after that game I found out about 5.a3. One idea is that if not Bxc5 you can protect it with b4 and follow up with a quick c4 to attack the centre.

Really interesting position after Qxb6 in your game, with the two bishops vs. the two knights in this structure. Actually I kinda prefer your position there since you're more active and White needs to castle immediately.

-waller-
Ginarook wrote:

Well, im winning it now

I don't think they have any activity after qxb6, he tried the h4, ng5 thing hoping no doubt to play qh5, but I stopped him

Couldn't possibly comment on a game in progress tongue.png but yeah Ng5 was terrible, White can't hope to play on the kingside there when the queenside is so open.

-waller-

If you want to challenge me in Daily, I'm definitely interested this opening so would like to see how it might go against that plan.

If you prefer playing the computer I think you can open the analysis board, make a few moves, and then select "Finish vs. Computer".

-waller-
Ginarook wrote:

lol, is that because you want to play against it, and learn how to smash me with pxp and a3

I mean, I'm not taking Black here tongue.png but yeah, good to practice playing against it for serious games. Will challenge you unrated.

dsanchez1973

 

-waller-

Nice game dsanchez, do you find Nf3 and c4 to be an effective plan in this line in your experience? I remember one of the guys on page 1 said a quick c4 was the idea he least liked to face.

dsanchez1973
-waller- wrote:

Nice game dsanchez, do you find Nf3 and c4 to be an effective plan in this line in your experience? I remember one of the guys on page 1 said a quick c4 was the idea he least liked to face.

 

In most of these CaroKann advance short attack lines, I try to get in a quick c4. It usually doesn't quite work this well obviously. However, the general principle of trying to open the center when black is behind in tempo seems to fit within accepted guidelines to me.

BonTheCat
-waller- wrote: I think losing a tempo is not necessarily "bad" in this context, more the idea is not to strike too early!

No, just as it's not always an advantage to play a Black opening with reverse colours. There's another line in the Caro-Kann where White can do the same thing: 1.e4 c6 2.d3 d5 3.Nd2 e5 4.Ngf3 Bd6, and now 5.d4!? is an interesting option for White.

jmaskell

Back when I played OTB at my club I always used c5 rather than Bf5 to avoid being caught out by the more experienced players. It was a bit more passive but the risk was less. I was lucky in that the critical lines didnt appear. The c5 variation has merit in avoiding the labyrinth of the Bf5 jungle, something Ive been trying out on this site.The Nc6 Nf3 Bg4 line worked well for me.

BL4D3RUNN3R

4.c4 or 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.c4 is interesting as well. 

stephen2801
Waller. Sam shankland has a wonderful series on the CK.
BonTheCat
Optimissed wrote:

I sometimes play a Caro-Kann instead of a Sicilian, for a change, although I mistrust it slightly because it's a bit passive and black doesn't have such a rich choice of ideas. Against the Advance I develop the c1 bishop, develop the knights to d7 and e7 and sometimes, depending on the position, will even castle before playing ...c5. Why hurry, since ...c5 isn't going to get a winning position by itself and black might want to 0-0-0?

I think you need to look up the modern treatment of the Caro-Kann. It's coming back in vogue as a weapon to play for a win.