Countering the London System

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darkunorthodox88

i hope i dont make it sound like im being too harsh on the london though. Its public reputation has improved drastically in the 21st century and with the rise of transpositional possibilities with the jobava "london" its reputation has been cemented at virtually all levels. The fact it was played in the last world championship is quite telling, but then again it also reflects a larger trend in super GM prep these days; the element of surprise is just as important if not more than theoretical edge. The top players who use the london dont go for the system right away but try to find novelties like early c4 instead of c3

MisterOakwood
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MisterOakwood wrote:
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MisterOakwood wrote:
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MisterOakwood wrote:

If you are afraid of the London system, you need to study it.

There is nothing to be afraid of.

I'm scared of it. Not the one with 2. Nc3 though, the Jobava. That's rather anti-positional. Telling someone they only need to study the most complex of all openings is a bit of a tall order. Admittedly, many don't know how to play it but Magnus plays it.

Calling London the most complex opening is really strange, I feel like there are countless of options for black that all proove at least equal. Even sub-optimal moves can lead to equality. For example, as a chigorin player, I have had to play a variation with an early Nc6, this is my current score against the London.

I strongly believe that even with this sub-optimal Nc6 move, black is equal. Not better, most variations get very drawish, but you need to expect this if you play the london (not Jobava). Dont get me wrong, London is a fine opening, but many of the positions are drawish and the better player can play for a win. But the opening itself will never be the winning factor in my opinion.

There's an analogy. 1. b3 is supposed to be a system opening but it isn't. Played well, 2. Bb2 is incorrect. Played as a system opening, 2. Bb2 is correct. But 2. Bb2 is not white's strongest second move.

It's very similar with the London, where it can be played by weak players as a system opening whereby they play moves by rote. It can also be played by very strong players and for them it's a transpositional opening which is creating its own theory. If that sequence of moves where black plays g5 equalises or better for black then white has misplayed. In this case, the error was obvious. Clamp down on g5 if ... g5 is a threat. If it isn't a threat then allow it. Simple logic.

I just dont think that there are any lines for white where "if equalised white has misplayed" against most defences from black. I agree that it can be played on any level due to its solidity and passivity, but that does not automatically mean that there are an advantage to be found - not that thats a problem anyhow. Most london players play the opening to get out of the opening with an okay position.

The implication was that white has misplayed if equalisation occurs in half a dozen moves. We were discussing a line where black plays ...g5, hitting white's bishop and it seems to be a justifiable response by black, which seems to cause white problems and maybe equalise.

If it does equalise, then, since white could obviously prevent the line in question, allowing it is therefore an error by white, who has misplayed. Very simple logic.

It isn't about "what most London players do" but about "what can be done by using the London".

Okay, let me rephrase the comment. Because of the passivity of the modest london setup, there are not really many setups from black that white can prevent. Most of these setups, offer black equality if played correctly. I dont believe that there is any forcing way to play the london for an advantage.

When I said most people I was reffering to that most london players dont want an opening advantade, they just want to survive the opening without knowing any theory - and then london is a fine choice.

BobRossOfWar

Polish Defense FTW

MisterOakwood
Optimissed skrev:
MisterOakwood wrote:
Optimissed skrev:
MisterOakwood wrote:
Optimissed skrev:
MisterOakwood wrote:

If you are afraid of the London system, you need to study it.

There is nothing to be afraid of.

I'm scared of it. Not the one with 2. Nc3 though, the Jobava. That's rather anti-positional. Telling someone they only need to study the most complex of all openings is a bit of a tall order. Admittedly, many don't know how to play it but Magnus plays it.

Because of the passivity of the modest london setup, there are not really many setups from black that white can prevent. Most of these setups, offer black equality if played correctly. I dont believe that there is any forcing way to play the london for an advantage.

The only difference between the London and the QGD is the bishop placement on Bf4, whereas in the QGD it's normally Bg5, to place pressure on d5. That means that where Bf4 is played, there's less point to white playing c4 but that doesn't mean c4 can't be played in the London. Generally, when white plays system-like moves, black can equalise but very often in many openings, white does retain a small advantage. This isn't always understood. It might be just something like a small extra bit of space or better minor piece placement for one or two pieces.

I agree, because c4 does not make sense in the london, black can develop optimally. In the QG there are drawbacks to all defences: QGD: blocking in your own bishop, Slav: blocking your knight, Tarrasch: getting an isolated d-pawn etc. But in the london, black can choose to develop however he likes, with very little consequences. The london is just way to passive for myself, but if it scores well for you, and you enjoy playing it then go for it. I just dont think that there is an objective advantage to be found by white.

Compadre_J

I agree & disagree.

I agree with Optimism saying the position is similar to the Noteboom Slav with White pieces.

I have always thought the same.

Even if White doesn’t play similar to Noteboom Slav line, White position is still good to me.

If white doesn’t hold on to the pawn, The position White gets reminds me of a Semi-Slav.

Holding on to the pawn might be the more challenging way for White to play for the advantage/win, but I don’t see any issue in giving the pawn back forcing Black to take time to recapture the piece in order to ensure easy development for white.

I still think white retains very small nagging edge, but perhaps it’s not enough to write home about.

Even if others disagree and think the position is equal, it still is pleasant position for White.

————————

As far as the C4 move is concerned, I sort of disagree with others on that matter.

I think c4 in London with Bishop on f4 could be helpful.

Bishop on f4 + Rook on c1 + C pawn trade would give White infiltration opportunities.

I don’t think it’s completely a bad idea.

Also, even in main lines where White Dark Bishop goes on g5. Sometimes, the Dark Bishop doesn’t get traded off for Knight on f6.

Sometimes, it snakes around to g3 which is same diagonal the Bishop in f4 is on.

MisterOakwood
Optimissed skrev:
MisterOakwood wrote:
Optimissed skrev:
MisterOakwood wrote:
Optimissed skrev:
MisterOakwood wrote:
Optimissed skrev:
MisterOakwood wrote:

If you are afraid of the London system, you need to study it.

There is nothing to be afraid of.

I'm scared of it. Not the one with 2. Nc3 though, the Jobava. That's rather anti-positional. Telling someone they only need to study the most complex of all openings is a bit of a tall order. Admittedly, many don't know how to play it but Magnus plays it.

Because of the passivity of the modest london setup, there are not really many setups from black that white can prevent. Most of these setups, offer black equality if played correctly. I dont believe that there is any forcing way to play the london for an advantage.

The only difference between the London and the QGD is the bishop placement on Bf4, whereas in the QGD it's normally Bg5, to place pressure on d5. That means that where Bf4 is played, there's less point to white playing c4 but that doesn't mean c4 can't be played in the London. Generally, when white plays system-like moves, black can equalise but very often in many openings, white does retain a small advantage. This isn't always understood. It might be just something like a small extra bit of space or better minor piece placement for one or two pieces.

I agree, because c4 does not make sense in the london, black can develop optimally. In the QG there are drawbacks to all defences: QGD: blocking in your own bishop, Slav: blocking your knight, Tarrasch: getting an isolated d-pawn etc. But in the london, black can choose to develop however he likes, with very little consequences. The london is just way to passive for myself, but if it scores well for you, and you enjoy playing it then go for it. I just dont think that there is an objective advantage to be found by white.

I don't play it. But it's genuinely a dangerous opening.

People think about it all wrong. The opening moves of the Sicilian don't look like much but I DO play the Sicilian and I get a lot of wins. Why is that? The one thing about the London is how flexible it is. So is the Sicilian. Probably the most flexible defence.

You cannot compare the London to the sicilian. The sicilian, although it has many variations, is rich in complications, and mostly tactical nature. The London does have some variations in terms of move order, but the structures are all the same. In most variations, the nature is more positional and aimed for players who want to grind endgames.

MisterOakwood
Optimissed skrev:
MisterOakwood wrote:
Optimissed skrev:
MisterOakwood wrote:
Optimissed skrev:
MisterOakwood wrote:
Optimissed skrev:
MisterOakwood wrote:
Optimissed skrev:
MisterOakwood wrote:

If you are afraid of the London system, you need to study it.

There is nothing to be afraid of.

I'm scared of it. Not the one with 2. Nc3 though, the Jobava. That's rather anti-positional. Telling someone they only need to study the most complex of all openings is a bit of a tall order. Admittedly, many don't know how to play it but Magnus plays it.

Because of the passivity of the modest london setup, there are not really many setups from black that white can prevent. Most of these setups, offer black equality if played correctly. I dont believe that there is any forcing way to play the london for an advantage.

The only difference between the London and the QGD is the bishop placement on Bf4, whereas in the QGD it's normally Bg5, to place pressure on d5. That means that where Bf4 is played, there's less point to white playing c4 but that doesn't mean c4 can't be played in the London. Generally, when white plays system-like moves, black can equalise but very often in many openings, white does retain a small advantage. This isn't always understood. It might be just something like a small extra bit of space or better minor piece placement for one or two pieces.

I agree, because c4 does not make sense in the london, black can develop optimally. In the QG there are drawbacks to all defences: QGD: blocking in your own bishop, Slav: blocking your knight, Tarrasch: getting an isolated d-pawn etc. But in the london, black can choose to develop however he likes, with very little consequences. The london is just way to passive for myself, but if it scores well for you, and you enjoy playing it then go for it. I just dont think that there is an objective advantage to be found by white.

I don't play it. But it's genuinely a dangerous opening.

People think about it all wrong. The opening moves of the Sicilian don't look like much but I DO play the Sicilian and I get a lot of wins. Why is that? The one thing about the London is how flexible it is. So is the Sicilian. Probably the most flexible defence.

You cannot compare the London to the sicilian. The sicilian, although it has many variations, is rich in complications, and mostly tactical nature. The London does have some variations in terms of move order, but the structures are all the same. In most variations, the nature is more positional and aimed for players who want to grind endgames.

But I just compared them, by saying that they're both very flexible! I play e6 Sicilians, which are more positional. Black targets the e4 pawn as well as h2 and the Q-side in general.

In what universe is the London flexible? How many different ways can you play it? It has the jobava london sure, but I would go so far and consider it a completely different opening since one is aggressive, and one is extremely slow and positional.

MisterOakwood
Optimissed skrev:

The Jobava obviously isn't so flexible. Maybe you've never considered the possibility of flexible openings? I knew someone who played 1. b3 very flexibly but I think you're mixing up "differently" (the Jobava is rather different, to be sure) with "flexibility", which means that an opening is capable of morphing and changing during the game because the pawns are not fully committed and they tend to stay on, so there can be a pawn storm at any point on the board.

I did not mean that the jobava is a flexible opening. I was only making sure that you were not referring to the jobava when you considered the london to be a flexible opening. To me, a flexible opening is an opening where you can play it many different ways. I dont think I have ever faced two london players who play the london differently. This is why I mentioned the Jobava, because it is another way to play the "London". But because it is so different than the regular london, I dont consider it the same opening.

Some London (non-jobava) players usually are misguided in thinking that it is some hyper aggressive opening with pawn storms and such. I have played 4 or 5 different systems against the london, scoring around 50-60% in most of them as black. I dont think I have seen any theory in these defences where white gets the initiative or anything remotely close to a kingside attack. Usually it ends in an equal endgame, with symmetrical pawn structures, and most pieces are traded.

If we look at the mainline in the masters database, London scores 50-60% draw, depending on move orders. This is far too high for me, or any player who enjoy sharp games.

sndeww
MisterOakwood wrote:
Optimissed skrev:

The Jobava obviously isn't so flexible. Maybe you've never considered the possibility of flexible openings? I knew someone who played 1. b3 very flexibly but I think you're mixing up "differently" (the Jobava is rather different, to be sure) with "flexibility", which means that an opening is capable of morphing and changing during the game because the pawns are not fully committed and they tend to stay on, so there can be a pawn storm at any point on the board.

I did not mean that the jobava is a flexible opening. I was only making sure that you were not referring to the jobava when you considered the london to be a flexible opening. To me, a flexible opening is an opening where you can play it many different ways. I dont think I have ever faced two london players who play the london differently. This is why I mentioned the Jobava, because it is another way to play the "London". But because it is so different than the regular london, I dont consider it the same opening.

Some London (non-jobava) players usually are misguided in thinking that it is some hyper aggressive opening with pawn storms and such. I have played 4 or 5 different systems against the london, scoring around 50-60% in most of them as black. I dont think I have seen any theory in these defences where white gets the initiative or anything remotely close to a kingside attack. Usually it ends in an equal endgame, with symmetrical pawn structures, and most pieces are traded.

If we look at the mainline in the masters database, London scores 50-60% draw, depending on move orders. This is far too high for me, or any player who enjoy sharp games.

There are some positions where white can play h4 Rh3 etc but they are very few (like maybe one or two).

MisterOakwood
sndeww skrev:
MisterOakwood wrote:
Optimissed skrev:

The Jobava obviously isn't so flexible. Maybe you've never considered the possibility of flexible openings? I knew someone who played 1. b3 very flexibly but I think you're mixing up "differently" (the Jobava is rather different, to be sure) with "flexibility", which means that an opening is capable of morphing and changing during the game because the pawns are not fully committed and they tend to stay on, so there can be a pawn storm at any point on the board.

I did not mean that the jobava is a flexible opening. I was only making sure that you were not referring to the jobava when you considered the london to be a flexible opening. To me, a flexible opening is an opening where you can play it many different ways. I dont think I have ever faced two london players who play the london differently. This is why I mentioned the Jobava, because it is another way to play the "London". But because it is so different than the regular london, I dont consider it the same opening.

Some London (non-jobava) players usually are misguided in thinking that it is some hyper aggressive opening with pawn storms and such. I have played 4 or 5 different systems against the london, scoring around 50-60% in most of them as black. I dont think I have seen any theory in these defences where white gets the initiative or anything remotely close to a kingside attack. Usually it ends in an equal endgame, with symmetrical pawn structures, and most pieces are traded.

If we look at the mainline in the masters database, London scores 50-60% draw, depending on move orders. This is far too high for me, or any player who enjoy sharp games.

There are some positions where white can play h4 Rh3 etc but they are very few (like maybe one or two).

Feel free to show me the lines. I am not aware of any lines like this in the London if black has not made any serious mistakes (except the jobava).

sndeww
MisterOakwood wrote:
sndeww skrev:

There are some positions where white can play h4 Rh3 etc but they are very few (like maybe one or two).

Feel free to show me the lines. I am not aware of any lines like this in the London if black has not made any serious mistakes (except the jobava).

I don't remember the lines specifically - I just know it exists. I think this might be one of them. At least it scores somewhat decently.

MisterOakwood
sndeww skrev:
MisterOakwood wrote:
sndeww skrev:

There are some positions where white can play h4 Rh3 etc but they are very few (like maybe one or two).

Feel free to show me the lines. I am not aware of any lines like this in the London if black has not made any serious mistakes (except the jobava).

I don't remember the lines specifically - I just know it exists. I think this might be one of them. At least it scores somewhat decently.

I think Be7 is a rather unambitious move. In my online database, it is played less than 10% of the time. The only reason I would imagine someone is playing the main-line this passively as black, is if he want to provoke an attack in which he has studied a lot. If black follows the main-line like this, there will be no attack for white:

However, very few London players have studied any moves beyond their system, at the same time they have a weird notion of them being hyperaggressive players. Therefore, if anybody is looking for a weird recommendation that deviates from this mainline, here is a decent defence playing on the fact that London players will usually play more aggressive than their opening allows for:
sndeww

@misteroakwood yeah I agree. I think if black plays better moves white doesn't have these types of chances. That's why the h4 ideas are very few.

MaetsNori
sndeww wrote:

I don't remember the lines specifically - I just know it exists. I think this might be one of them. At least it scores somewhat decently.

This is one of the reasons that I often delay castling, as Black, against the London, until White has castled first.

prplt

I just play the Hartlaub-Charlick and there's no London against that grin

Mazetoskylo
prplt wrote:

I just play the Hartlaub-Charlick and there's no London against that

What on earth prevents white from playing 3.Bf4 after 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 d6?

It is not the best move, but still good enough for a large white advantage.

prplt
Mazetoskylo wrote:
prplt wrote:

I just play the Hartlaub-Charlick and there's no London against that

What on earth prevents white from playing 3.Bf4 after 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 d6?

It is not the best move, but still good enough for a large white advantage.

the resulting positions are not at all London-like and not what London players are used to

after Bf4 Nc6, if they take the pawn we're going Qf6, immediately attacking the bishop & b2

and if they play Nf3 we go Bg4 and then either they take the pawn and we get Qf6 or if they don't we take it ourselves and still get Qf6

it's like +0.8 with absolute best play (which you won't get cause London players know 0 theory lol) and black win rates in the database are over 50% for all 3 variations

fredh65

The book d5 - A Classical Repertoire by Nikolaos Ntirlis shows a good was to deal with the London. He recommends trying to exchange White's light suare bishop by ...b6 and ...Ba6, where the bishop is protected by the knight on square b8. Black's knight will get attacked, I return the knight to b8 then eith to d7, or c6 after ...c5

GenericAvocado

London System players struggling to find a system for the middlegame:

fredh65
Optimissed wrote:
fredh65 wrote:

The book d5 - A Classical Repertoire by Nikolaos Ntirlis shows a good was to deal with the London. He recommends trying to exchange White's light suare bishop by ...b6 and ...Ba6, where the bishop is protected by the knight on square b8. Black's knight will get attacked, I return the knight to b8 then eith to d7, or c6 after ...c5

Yes that's my favourite method. I would probably play that way in an important game. However, the N can be aimed at the e4 square. It shouldn't return to b8 unless necessary.

It is necessary if White attacks Black knight on a6 with the queen.

I don't follow you. How is the knight on a6 going to be aimed at e4?