Countering the London System

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fredh65
Optimissed wrote:
fredh65 wrote:

The book d5 - A Classical Repertoire by Nikolaos Ntirlis shows a good was to deal with the London. He recommends trying to exchange White's light suare bishop by ...b6 and ...Ba6, where the bishop is protected by the knight on square b8. Black's knight will get attacked, I return the knight to b8 then eith to d7, or c6 after ...c5

Yes that's my favourite method. I would probably play that way in an important game. However, the N can be aimed at the e4 square. It shouldn't return to b8 unless necessary.

It is necessary if White attacks Black knight on a6 with the queen.

I don't follow you. How is the knight on a6 going to be aimed at e4?

GenericAvocado

 xJonathanx2020 wrote:
 

The following is a position that (if not careful) white could end up with, if not played right.

This is strictly why you ignore the bishop threat and push the pawn forward.

PawnBinary

pushing c pawn in london and getting pony to b5 and dark bish to c7 at same time fast is a nice tactic that can lead to winning a rook and queen.

MaetsNori
fredh65 wrote:

The book d5 - A Classical Repertoire by Nikolaos Ntirlis shows a good was to deal with the London. He recommends trying to exchange White's light suare bishop by ...b6 and ...Ba6, where the bishop is protected by the knight on square b8. Black's knight will get attacked, I return the knight to b8 then eith to d7, or c6 after ...c5

Nice. I suggested something similar on page 2 of this thread (post #31).

Though instead of retreating the knight, I rather like Qc8. (The idea is to eventually move the queen to b7 to "replace" the now-missing LSB.)

Though I also would rather do this with the pawn on ...d6, instead ... But the idea is still the same - trade off White's LSB.

London players usually dislike this.

fredh65
Optimissed wrote:
fredh65 wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
fredh65 wrote:

The book d5 - A Classical Repertoire by Nikolaos Ntirlis shows a good was to deal with the London. He recommends trying to exchange White's light suare bishop by ...b6 and ...Ba6, where the bishop is protected by the knight on square b8. Black's knight will get attacked, I return the knight to b8 then eith to d7, or c6 after ...c5

Yes that's my favourite method. I would probably play that way in an important game. However, the N can be aimed at the e4 square. It shouldn't return to b8 unless necessary.

It is necessary if White attacks Black knight on a6 with the queen.

I don't follow you. How is the knight on a6 going to be aimed at e4?

Can't you work out a possible route? That system was shown to me by an ex blind champion of the World, who was a member of our club in the UK, in relation to the Stonewall and the Colle, but it may be used in the London.

Yes, I could work one out. But I'd rather have you explain it to me, especially the why, since you are the one promoting it. Anything more substantial than "someone told me"?

GothamChessSubscriber1478

I want to get this in the London but no longer wish to play it

GothamChessSubscriber1478

Here is a good gambit against the London anyways (not mine, find on lichess, search anti london gambit)

crazedrat1000

Rather than playing this soul-sucking opening known as the London I am just avoiding it entirely these days -

After 2. Nf3 I'm playing the Krause variation to make it just not viable -

Then against the accelerated you can transpose w/ a line in the exchange caro-kann -

Same line in the caro-kann -

Yes I'm aware 3. c4 is a good response to the Krause. It's not nearly as good for white as people think it is, though.

This system is especially good if you're a slav or semi-slav player, since the krause can transpose into both the caro-kann exchange and the slav exchange -

Compadre_J

@crazed

Very nice transpositions

Yeah, I see those positions all the time as White.

Both sides should be happy.

crazedrat1000

@Compadre_J What line are you playing as white these days? Are you seeing these from the London, or are you referring to some other lines?

What's cool about that Caro-Kann line is an early Bd3 isn't possible, due to Bf4 delaying white, and Nc6 pressuring d4. You can always develop your bishop outside the pawn chain. So it's an improved CK, which I think black has to be happy with. Not that I'm ever happy playing these boring lines. But the f6 expansion makes things interesting too.

Compadre_J

@Crazed

I have played the Exchange Caro Kan for long time. The transposition you’re showing is identical to mainlines of Exchange Caro.

Both sides should be happy.

I believe Black is better positionally due to 2 center pawns, but White has nice dynamic compensation due to semi open E file.

crazedrat1000

@Compadre_J in the Krause the CK actually is improved since Nf3 has been played early, allowing Bg4. Typically white will delay Nf3 to pressure black to play e6 before developing the bishop. And in the Accelerated London it's improved since Bd3 is just not possible. It's an improved CK.

Which reminds me of another transposition that's possible.... from the Colle you can get into the CK exchange again here -

Likewise you'll often reach a CK exchange if white plays c3 instead. It'll be that or a much improved slav exchange for black -

Now in that line it is the mainline theoretical Ck exchange, where white can play Bd3 / delay Nf3. But I'm fine with that. I like the idea of playing a theoretical line such as the CK exchange by transposition, especially an e4 line against a d4 player.

And if instead of c3 white plays c4 black can transpose it into a QGA, or a Symmetrical Tarrasch, as well. 
So if you're willing to play the CK exchange you can just about dispense with all these boring zukertort lines. No more grinding that theory endlessly. CK exchange theory is all quite well established.

Compadre_J

@Crazed

A lot of stuff you’re saying is true.

The Mainline has always been 6.Nf3

The drawback with Nf3 is you let Black do the pin which is 100% true and it is probably Black best move as well.

Due to Bishop pin, Players have tried delaying Nf3.

They have began favoring Bf4 or h3.

The move Bf4 is probably the “New” Mainline, but some databases call it the Rubinstein variation or something like that.

Even though the above lines are more popular, I have never really understood the hatred or dislike of the mainline.

I have always thought Nf3 was a great move.

It walks into a Bishop pin, but I have never been afraid of the pin.
I always thought White position was fine.

Normally, when White plays Nf3, They will try to do 9.Bf4 and trade happens.

I think the position your showing will transpose.