D4 counter attacks
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@ThrillerFan I wasn’t trying to say a one trick pony and if I worded it that way my bad. I just don’t want to play the common response as I like learning off beat lines that don’t see much play as I find them a lot of fun. These lines I have found lead to rather odd positions that keep the game unique and interesting :) thank you for the advise, I’ll look into the openings u recommend... also what everyone one else did.
May 3, 2021
0
#24
Optimissed wrote:
Against 3. e4 I have been playing 3. ...Nf6. Perhaps I should have a look at 3. ...Nc6.
So, 1. d4 ...d5 2. c4 ...dc 3. Nf3 ...a6!? 4. e3 ...Bg4 5. Bxc4 would be our game. White keeps it completely simple and awaits developments. White will probably castle next. Are you intending ...e5 or ...c5?
In the line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 a6 4.e3 Bg4 5.Bxc4 e6, Black's follow-up moves are reactionary, mainly to avoid certain minor threats by White with either his Knights or Central pawns.
6.h3 (most common move) is answered by 6...Bh5
6.Nc3 is answered by 6...Nc6.
6.O-O is answered by 6...Nf6
More often than not, all 3 are played in some order, like 6.O-O Nf6 7.h3 Bh5 8.Nc3 Nc6.
Black's Bishop will usually go to d6. White will usually need to retreat Bc4-e2 at some point due to problems with the pin (especially d4).
I've been looking at the Chigorin setup recently.
1d4 d5
2c4 (or Nf3) Nc6
Seems to be fine well up to GM level and above, while letting black call the tune.
May 3, 2021
0
#26
Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:
I've been looking at the Chigorin setup recently.
1d4 d5
2c4 (or Nf3) Nc6
Seems to be fine well up to GM level and above, while letting black call the tune.
I am not a huge fan of the pure Chigorin because of 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.cxd5!
This line is completely avoided in the QGA. In lines with ...Nc6, like 3.e4 Nc6, there are a few limited lines that overlap with the Chigorin, but not the ones that bring great concern to Black.
Yes, that's what I played from the white side too. But it may not be best. That line allows black to pin white's knights and achieve an asymmetry he is looking for. I've been caught out a few times, and possibly because while black was playing "his system", I was playing a rarely visited part of my repertoire. My venture in Chigorin territory occurred after a recent loss and memories of the other games.
From the white perspective, developing both knights and letting black play dc could be better...
ThrillerFan wrote:
Zanoodle wrote:
@optimissed by unique I mean opening that are not the typical responses ... something that can catch the opponent off Gaurd
That is completely the wrong approach to chess. You should be playing to get good positions. If you learn how to maintain an advantage, how to win the won game, you will get many wins.
One trick ponies that are unsound might get you a win here or there, but for every one of them, you will get 5 cases of a terrible position and lose most of them.
Not worth the trade off.
Problem with the old Benoni from your first post is that the Benoni is not very good if White has not played c4. This is why everybody now plays 1...Nf6 and only after 2.c4 do they play 2...c5.
Reasoning is simple. In the Benoni, Black's biggest weakness is the d6-pawn. After 1.d4 c5?! 2.d5 Nf6 3.Nc3! (No c4) d6 4.e4 g6 5.Nf3 Bg7 6.Be2 O-O 7.O-O e6 etc.
Both sides can alter move order, slight change in moves, whatever. The main point is that White will eventually play Nf3-d2-c4, and with that Knight on c4, White gets a pretty big advantage.
Compare this to the Czech Benoni, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e5 4.Nc3 d6 5.e4 Be7, White has no open c4 square for a Knight to harass d6.
There are plenty of SOUND defenses to d4, and some have numerous variations within that no White player at the Amateur level will know all of them:
QGD - 3...Be7, Lasker, Tartakower, Orthodox
Slav - 4...dxc4, Semi-Slav, Triangle Defense
QGA
Nimzo - 4.e3 you have 4...c5, 4...b6, 4...O-O, with 4.Qc2 you have 4...c5, 4...d5, 4...O-O, with 3.Nf3 you have the Queen's Indian, Bogo-Indian, Modern Benoni, or QGD
King's Indian - Against the Classical you have 7...exd4, 7...Na6, 7...Nc6. Against Saemisch you have 6...c5, 6...e5, 6...Nc6, 6...c6, etc.
Grunfeld - Ask others for advice on this opening
Modern or Czech Benoni
Dutch - Classical/Stonewall, Leningrad
With all of these sound responses, there is no way your opponent knows all of these. With sound lines, one slip-up by the opponent can often lead to a big advantage for you.
One trick ponies are just that. Most already know the Budapest trap. Many know the problems with the old Benoni and will play for Nc4 and a4 (to prevent b5 and keep the outpost for the knight). These disaster lines will lead to just that, disaster!
I COMPLETELY agree with you. I used to play these people OTB and they would slam pieces every time they move because they’re playing something “unorthodox”. They’re doing this because they think they’re doing something good and catching me off guard. I found it very funny.
May 3, 2021
0
#29
PuffyFoot wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
Zanoodle wrote:
@optimissed by unique I mean opening that are not the typical responses ... something that can catch the opponent off Gaurd
That is completely the wrong approach to chess. You should be playing to get good positions. If you learn how to maintain an advantage, how to win the won game, you will get many wins.
One trick ponies that are unsound might get you a win here or there, but for every one of them, you will get 5 cases of a terrible position and lose most of them.
Not worth the trade off.
Problem with the old Benoni from your first post is that the Benoni is not very good if White has not played c4. This is why everybody now plays 1...Nf6 and only after 2.c4 do they play 2...c5.
Reasoning is simple. In the Benoni, Black's biggest weakness is the d6-pawn. After 1.d4 c5?! 2.d5 Nf6 3.Nc3! (No c4) d6 4.e4 g6 5.Nf3 Bg7 6.Be2 O-O 7.O-O e6 etc.
Both sides can alter move order, slight change in moves, whatever. The main point is that White will eventually play Nf3-d2-c4, and with that Knight on c4, White gets a pretty big advantage.
Compare this to the Czech Benoni, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e5 4.Nc3 d6 5.e4 Be7, White has no open c4 square for a Knight to harass d6.
There are plenty of SOUND defenses to d4, and some have numerous variations within that no White player at the Amateur level will know all of them:
QGD - 3...Be7, Lasker, Tartakower, Orthodox
Slav - 4...dxc4, Semi-Slav, Triangle Defense
QGA
Nimzo - 4.e3 you have 4...c5, 4...b6, 4...O-O, with 4.Qc2 you have 4...c5, 4...d5, 4...O-O, with 3.Nf3 you have the Queen's Indian, Bogo-Indian, Modern Benoni, or QGD
King's Indian - Against the Classical you have 7...exd4, 7...Na6, 7...Nc6. Against Saemisch you have 6...c5, 6...e5, 6...Nc6, 6...c6, etc.
Grunfeld - Ask others for advice on this opening
Modern or Czech Benoni
Dutch - Classical/Stonewall, Leningrad
With all of these sound responses, there is no way your opponent knows all of these. With sound lines, one slip-up by the opponent can often lead to a big advantage for you.
One trick ponies are just that. Most already know the Budapest trap. Many know the problems with the old Benoni and will play for Nc4 and a4 (to prevent b5 and keep the outpost for the knight). These disaster lines will lead to just that, disaster!
I COMPLETELY agree with you. I used to play these people OTB and they would slam pieces every time they move because they’re playing something “unorthodox”. They’re doing this because they think they’re doing something good and catching me off guard. I found it very funny.
Yeah, exactly. For me, being a 1.e4 or 1.Nf3 player (I avoid 1.d4 straight up to avoid the Grunfeld, but will transpose to other QP openings), I have gotten the following, and early on they smile, and at the end they tell you that you were lucky.
Some I recall:
1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 f5
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 c6 4.f4 b5 (usual here is Qa5)
1.e4 e6 2.d4 f5
ThrillerFan wrote:
PuffyFoot wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
Zanoodle wrote:
@optimissed by unique I mean opening that are not the typical responses ... something that can catch the opponent off Gaurd
That is completely the wrong approach to chess. You should be playing to get good positions. If you learn how to maintain an advantage, how to win the won game, you will get many wins.
One trick ponies that are unsound might get you a win here or there, but for every one of them, you will get 5 cases of a terrible position and lose most of them.
Not worth the trade off.
Problem with the old Benoni from your first post is that the Benoni is not very good if White has not played c4. This is why everybody now plays 1...Nf6 and only after 2.c4 do they play 2...c5.
Reasoning is simple. In the Benoni, Black's biggest weakness is the d6-pawn. After 1.d4 c5?! 2.d5 Nf6 3.Nc3! (No c4) d6 4.e4 g6 5.Nf3 Bg7 6.Be2 O-O 7.O-O e6 etc.
Both sides can alter move order, slight change in moves, whatever. The main point is that White will eventually play Nf3-d2-c4, and with that Knight on c4, White gets a pretty big advantage.
Compare this to the Czech Benoni, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e5 4.Nc3 d6 5.e4 Be7, White has no open c4 square for a Knight to harass d6.
There are plenty of SOUND defenses to d4, and some have numerous variations within that no White player at the Amateur level will know all of them:
QGD - 3...Be7, Lasker, Tartakower, Orthodox
Slav - 4...dxc4, Semi-Slav, Triangle Defense
QGA
Nimzo - 4.e3 you have 4...c5, 4...b6, 4...O-O, with 4.Qc2 you have 4...c5, 4...d5, 4...O-O, with 3.Nf3 you have the Queen's Indian, Bogo-Indian, Modern Benoni, or QGD
King's Indian - Against the Classical you have 7...exd4, 7...Na6, 7...Nc6. Against Saemisch you have 6...c5, 6...e5, 6...Nc6, 6...c6, etc.
Grunfeld - Ask others for advice on this opening
Modern or Czech Benoni
Dutch - Classical/Stonewall, Leningrad
With all of these sound responses, there is no way your opponent knows all of these. With sound lines, one slip-up by the opponent can often lead to a big advantage for you.
One trick ponies are just that. Most already know the Budapest trap. Many know the problems with the old Benoni and will play for Nc4 and a4 (to prevent b5 and keep the outpost for the knight). These disaster lines will lead to just that, disaster!
I COMPLETELY agree with you. I used to play these people OTB and they would slam pieces every time they move because they’re playing something “unorthodox”. They’re doing this because they think they’re doing something good and catching me off guard. I found it very funny.
Yeah, exactly. For me, being a 1.e4 or 1.Nf3 player (I avoid 1.d4 straight up to avoid the Grunfeld, but will transpose to other QP openings), I have gotten the following, and early on they smile, and at the end they tell you that you were lucky.
Some I recall:
1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 f5
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 c6 4.f4 b5 (usual here is Qa5)
1.e4 e6 2.d4 f5
WTF is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 f5
May 4, 2021
0
#31
PuffyFoot wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
PuffyFoot wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
Zanoodle wrote:
@optimissed by unique I mean opening that are not the typical responses ... something that can catch the opponent off Gaurd
That is completely the wrong approach to chess. You should be playing to get good positions. If you learn how to maintain an advantage, how to win the won game, you will get many wins.
One trick ponies that are unsound might get you a win here or there, but for every one of them, you will get 5 cases of a terrible position and lose most of them.
Not worth the trade off.
Problem with the old Benoni from your first post is that the Benoni is not very good if White has not played c4. This is why everybody now plays 1...Nf6 and only after 2.c4 do they play 2...c5.
Reasoning is simple. In the Benoni, Black's biggest weakness is the d6-pawn. After 1.d4 c5?! 2.d5 Nf6 3.Nc3! (No c4) d6 4.e4 g6 5.Nf3 Bg7 6.Be2 O-O 7.O-O e6 etc.
Both sides can alter move order, slight change in moves, whatever. The main point is that White will eventually play Nf3-d2-c4, and with that Knight on c4, White gets a pretty big advantage.
Compare this to the Czech Benoni, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e5 4.Nc3 d6 5.e4 Be7, White has no open c4 square for a Knight to harass d6.
There are plenty of SOUND defenses to d4, and some have numerous variations within that no White player at the Amateur level will know all of them:
QGD - 3...Be7, Lasker, Tartakower, Orthodox
Slav - 4...dxc4, Semi-Slav, Triangle Defense
QGA
Nimzo - 4.e3 you have 4...c5, 4...b6, 4...O-O, with 4.Qc2 you have 4...c5, 4...d5, 4...O-O, with 3.Nf3 you have the Queen's Indian, Bogo-Indian, Modern Benoni, or QGD
King's Indian - Against the Classical you have 7...exd4, 7...Na6, 7...Nc6. Against Saemisch you have 6...c5, 6...e5, 6...Nc6, 6...c6, etc.
Grunfeld - Ask others for advice on this opening
Modern or Czech Benoni
Dutch - Classical/Stonewall, Leningrad
With all of these sound responses, there is no way your opponent knows all of these. With sound lines, one slip-up by the opponent can often lead to a big advantage for you.
One trick ponies are just that. Most already know the Budapest trap. Many know the problems with the old Benoni and will play for Nc4 and a4 (to prevent b5 and keep the outpost for the knight). These disaster lines will lead to just that, disaster!
I COMPLETELY agree with you. I used to play these people OTB and they would slam pieces every time they move because they’re playing something “unorthodox”. They’re doing this because they think they’re doing something good and catching me off guard. I found it very funny.
Yeah, exactly. For me, being a 1.e4 or 1.Nf3 player (I avoid 1.d4 straight up to avoid the Grunfeld, but will transpose to other QP openings), I have gotten the following, and early on they smile, and at the end they tell you that you were lucky.
Some I recall:
1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 f5
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 c6 4.f4 b5 (usual here is Qa5)
1.e4 e6 2.d4 f5
WTF is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 f5
I do not know if it has an official name, but my opponent tried to claim it was the Frunch - I wish I was kidding.
May 4, 2021
0
#32
ThrillerFan wrote:
PuffyFoot wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
PuffyFoot wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
Zanoodle wrote:
@optimissed by unique I mean opening that are not the typical responses ... something that can catch the opponent off Gaurd
That is completely the wrong approach to chess. You should be playing to get good positions. If you learn how to maintain an advantage, how to win the won game, you will get many wins.
One trick ponies that are unsound might get you a win here or there, but for every one of them, you will get 5 cases of a terrible position and lose most of them.
Not worth the trade off.
Problem with the old Benoni from your first post is that the Benoni is not very good if White has not played c4. This is why everybody now plays 1...Nf6 and only after 2.c4 do they play 2...c5.
Reasoning is simple. In the Benoni, Black's biggest weakness is the d6-pawn. After 1.d4 c5?! 2.d5 Nf6 3.Nc3! (No c4) d6 4.e4 g6 5.Nf3 Bg7 6.Be2 O-O 7.O-O e6 etc.
Both sides can alter move order, slight change in moves, whatever. The main point is that White will eventually play Nf3-d2-c4, and with that Knight on c4, White gets a pretty big advantage.
Compare this to the Czech Benoni, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e5 4.Nc3 d6 5.e4 Be7, White has no open c4 square for a Knight to harass d6.
There are plenty of SOUND defenses to d4, and some have numerous variations within that no White player at the Amateur level will know all of them:
QGD - 3...Be7, Lasker, Tartakower, Orthodox
Slav - 4...dxc4, Semi-Slav, Triangle Defense
QGA
Nimzo - 4.e3 you have 4...c5, 4...b6, 4...O-O, with 4.Qc2 you have 4...c5, 4...d5, 4...O-O, with 3.Nf3 you have the Queen's Indian, Bogo-Indian, Modern Benoni, or QGD
King's Indian - Against the Classical you have 7...exd4, 7...Na6, 7...Nc6. Against Saemisch you have 6...c5, 6...e5, 6...Nc6, 6...c6, etc.
Grunfeld - Ask others for advice on this opening
Modern or Czech Benoni
Dutch - Classical/Stonewall, Leningrad
With all of these sound responses, there is no way your opponent knows all of these. With sound lines, one slip-up by the opponent can often lead to a big advantage for you.
One trick ponies are just that. Most already know the Budapest trap. Many know the problems with the old Benoni and will play for Nc4 and a4 (to prevent b5 and keep the outpost for the knight). These disaster lines will lead to just that, disaster!
I COMPLETELY agree with you. I used to play these people OTB and they would slam pieces every time they move because they’re playing something “unorthodox”. They’re doing this because they think they’re doing something good and catching me off guard. I found it very funny.
Yeah, exactly. For me, being a 1.e4 or 1.Nf3 player (I avoid 1.d4 straight up to avoid the Grunfeld, but will transpose to other QP openings), I have gotten the following, and early on they smile, and at the end they tell you that you were lucky.
Some I recall:
1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 f5
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 c6 4.f4 b5 (usual here is Qa5)
1.e4 e6 2.d4 f5
WTF is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 f5
I do not know if it has an official name, but my opponent tried to claim it was the Frunch - I wish I was kidding.
And actually, if memory serves me right (this was in a blitz side event), I believe this was during the time that I was playing the Veresov as White (1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bg5 and would answer the 3...e6 line with 4.e4 with a direct transposition to the French, like My Round 3 of the 2003 US Open went 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 4.e4.
If that is the case, that it was that time period, it actually would have gone 1.d4 e6 2.e4 f5 (I avoided the English Defense by playing 2.e4 against 1...e6 or 1...b6, leading to a French (or a Frunch, apparently) or Owen's Defense).
ThrillerFan wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
Against 3. e4 I have been playing 3. ...Nf6. Perhaps I should have a look at 3. ...Nc6.
So, 1. d4 ...d5 2. c4 ...dc 3. Nf3 ...a6!? 4. e3 ...Bg4 5. Bxc4 would be our game. White keeps it completely simple and awaits developments. White will probably castle next. Are you intending ...e5 or ...c5?
In the line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 a6 4.e3 Bg4 5.Bxc4 e6, Black's follow-up moves are reactionary, mainly to avoid certain minor threats by White with either his Knights or Central pawns.
6.h3 (most common move) is answered by 6...Bh5
6.Nc3 is answered by 6...Nc6.
6.O-O is answered by 6...Nf6
More often than not, all 3 are played in some order, like 6.O-O Nf6 7.h3 Bh5 8.Nc3 Nc6.
Black's Bishop will usually go to d6. White will usually need to retreat Bc4-e2 at some point due to problems with the pin (especially d4).
The old approach tended to be that white waits for black to castle and plays h3 and g4. However, in either order, 5. ...e6 6. 0-0 ...Nf6 7. h3 ...Bh5 and here I have played Qe2 in the past. I tend to want to avoid Nc3. I still don't know whether it's going to d2.
As for the Chigorin, I tend to play 3. Nc3, partly because of the wonderful trap line in that variation but mainly because I think that Nf3 ...Bg4 tends to equalise for black. But I should look again at 3. cd, in view of the recommendation. The Chigorin is played a lot less now ..... so much less that recently in a blitz game I forgot a pair of moves in my favourite trap line. I forgot to play Nf3 after 3. ...cd and lost horrifically.
Nimzo Indian is most solid and flexible for black in shorter time control or under pressure. And I love Benoni games. Benoni against 1d4 is like sicilian against 1 e4, but ... only in longer time controls because Benoni defense if played correctly is a very sharp defense and one needs time to calculate all the tactical shots involved. And yes if you want to learn Benoni first start with the Old Benoni:
A Detailed Guide to the Old Benoni - YouTube
or the czech which are more forgiving then the modern benoni. (but I find czech boring)
But overall Benoni defense is a "sound" defensive system for black against 1 d4 in human play...as for computers well white can get a easy to play game against you but thankfully you are not playing against sf most of the time.
Against 3. e4 I have been playing 3. ...Nf6. Perhaps I should have a look at 3. ...Nc6.
So, 1. d4 ...d5 2. c4 ...dc 3. Nf3 ...a6!? 4. e3 ...Bg4 5. Bxc4 would be our game. White keeps it completely simple and awaits developments. White will probably castle next. Are you intending ...e5 or ...c5?