Does chess openings really matter if you will win or not?

Sort:
Martin_Stahl
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:

I have to say I disagree. I can bang off a list of opening principles that you could memorize almost immediately, but they're pretty much useless unless you learn to apply them practically, and the same can be said of opening theory. Learning a bit of theory isn't very hard and isn't very time consuming. As I've said before, you can learn the basics of the Caro Kann in an hour, and if you wanted, you could play it for the rest of your life. Firouzja uses it in almost every tournament that he plays in, for example, and I hear he's pretty good. Additionally, you don't have to learn it all at once.

You also make the somewhat unreasonable assumption that you can somehow *study* how to not make mistakes, and you assume that things like doing puzzles first, have the same kind of one-to-one correspondence in time spent to learning. Does an hour of doing puzzles help more than an hour of doing some theory work? I tend to doubt it. I've done zillions of puzzles and they don't help much. As far as I know, there is NO surefire way of learning how not to blunder or how not to hang pieces and this all comes with playing games. Does playing three games of rapid improve you more than an hour spent on theory? I doubt it. Does analyzing two games for thirty minutes each help more than an hour of studying theory? Maybe, though maybe not. Most of the times when beginners lose a game it's because, surprise, they hung some pieces. Does analyzing games help with that? Not really. Analysis doesn't help with board blindness.

So once again, you're assuming that time is better spent elsewhere and that there's a one-to-one tradeoff. I wouldn't be so sure and it's an awfully big assumption that such a tradeoff exists.

 

I certainly used to study openings more and have a plan on working through my current opening issues but I'm going to tie it more in to more patterns and plans, along with finding the places where my ideas just don't work. However, I can verify from both personal experience and from looking  at the analysis of other people's games (both here and OTB), that the opening doesn't make a ton of difference in most cases.


As can be shown in this topic, there are coaches and masters that suggest not to worry too much about openings (beyond a few moves, principles, and maybe playing the same openings over and over to get familiar with the positions) and some that do. A lot of people put a lot of stock in opening study and while some do well with it. A lot of others find themselves floundering, swapping openings all the time when they're still not getting the wins they want, and ultimately the problem isn't the opening at all.


The two places I mostly see the proponents for opening study are those well below the rating where they benefit much from it (sub-1200) and those were it begins to make more sense to do it 1800+. The higher the rating, the more likely you're going to be facing people that know openings pretty well and getting to the middlegame with that knowledge actually may make a difference. Those in the middle ratings shouldn't have a major focus on openings and I still think organically growing the opening knowledge (or having a coach point out issues) is more beneficial in the long run.

 

I've made it mid-1600's US Chess on what study I've done, though have fallen a few times. I know the basics of a lot of different openings and in general I'm getting into early middlegames most of the time without major problems (though there are times when that's not true). It's from that point on where the problems start and I'm missing tactical ideas and having endgame problems. The same is true of other player's games I've looked at.

 

There's a local player in our club that has made it up to over 1700 US Chess playing a lot of sub-optimal openings (not theory) and he is able to play at that level because he's fairly decent at tactics, endgames, and very good about creating complications (even if they may not be the best).

 

With my bad rating, you don't have to agree with me. Just ask yourself if your opening study is really helping you that much. I think you'll find that if you analyze your games, you're missing tactical ideas, missing your opponent's blunders, not playing the endgame as well as you could, and may have positional problems. I know that's true for me happy.png

Martin_Stahl
Spielkalb wrote:

@Martin_Stahl, I think we can all agree to the point that learning obscure opening lines hidden in strange variants won't profit anyone. Except you're facing an opponent who's known of playing exact that obscure line. 

But on the other hand, wouldn't you explain to a beginner the advantages of e4 compare to a3 and maybe go to the Italian tho show them how to apply the opening principles? Where is the line between "just enough" to understand the principles and "to much" theory?

A fitting quote from one of my favourite philosophers, Immanuel Kant:

Gedanken ohne Inhalt sind leer,  Anschauungen ohne Begriffe sind blind.

(roughly translated: Thoughts without experience are empty, experiences without thoughts are blind.)

 

But opening principles, in most cases, will cover the needs of that. 3-4 moves in any opening, with some basic ideas, is about as far as most players are going to get before they get a position they don't recall or never studied. At each step of the way, there are multiple paths and trying to learn about all the possibilities that are playable, quickly becomes unwieldy without a great memory.


Knowing where that line is, will depend on the person some but I wouldn't expect most player to get very much benefit spending more than around 10% of their time on openings, with the exception in post game analysis looking for ideas that just don't work and figuring out why and what would have been better and still suited to the way the player thinks and plays.

Martin_Stahl
Spielkalb wrote:

@Stil1, in my understanding learning theory and practising don't necessarily have to contradict or exclude each other. For example, a friend of mine and I wanted to learn about the Sicilian Dragon variation.  So we started some daily games and both prepared to this opening. We've learned quite a lot by this kind of approach. And that's not for remembering lines, but understanding what are the ideas behind this. 

 

I did the same thing in Daily and there is one place where I think it can be more useful. Play thematic tournaments, use the Explorer and databases, get a lot of games in the openings you are interested and learn some of the patterns and ideas by playing the game. You'll likely get a lot of different replies/ideas after leaving any allowed resources and learn what does and doesn't normally work.


In general live games, here and OTB, you could have a lot of study in the openings you like to play and you're going to get 50-60 percent of your games where that knowledge becomes mostly useless because your opponent plays something you've never seen or studied and may never see again.

NikkiLikeChikki

@Martin_Stahl - I fully admit to using theory as a crutch, and I was actually decently rated in high school on my team, making it up to 1500 USCF. My best win was against someone rated about 300 higher than myself because I had prepped to move 17 after  finding out his favorite lines.

But I can't calculate. In long games, I can sit myself down and force myself to work out variations, but it's exceedingly hard for me, and almost impossible in short games where my mind becomes a jumble.

You could argue that people who become "theory junkies" do it at the expense of getting good at other parts of the game, but have you ever considered that the causality runs the other way? Perhaps they've reached their limit on their ability to calculate, and no amount of practice will help them see the board better. Improving their theory is the only thing they can control. No number of puzzles that I do will help me visualize better. It's just not going to happen.

Martin_Stahl
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:
..

You could argue that people who become "theory junkies" do it at the expense of getting good at other parts of the game, but have you ever considered that the causality runs the other way? Perhaps they've reached their limit on their ability to calculate, and no amount of practice will help them see the board better. Improving their theory is the only thing they can control. No number of puzzles that I do will help me visualize better. It's just not going to happen.

 

If you can't improve on endgames, tactics and positional ideas, no amount of opening prep is likely going to help in the majority of your games, especially if you can't prepare against someone specific.

 

If you enjoy it or you feel it's the only thing that will work for, go for it. I just don't think it's generally the best idea for most players.

MaxedWarrior999

Well my opinion is that it does not matter as long as the opening is played correctly

nTzT

To me when I study an opening, I study the ideas that follow. It has helped me so much. I am more familiar with the ideas and tactics that are common in certain openings, they even end in certain types of endgames and I think all of it has to be studied as a whole. You can't just memorize a move and think it will benefit your Chess in the long-run. 


nTzT
MaxedWarrior999 wrote:

Well my opinion is that it does not matter as long as the opening is played correctly

So you are then saying it does matter... tongue.png

IMKeto
CouldntFindAGoodUsername wrote:

Just curious to know...

Depends on the skill level of the players.  At the elite levels yes openings matter.   For the other 99+% of us?  Not so much.

nTzT
IMKeto wrote:
CouldntFindAGoodUsername wrote:

Just curious to know...

Depends on the skill level of the players.  At the elite levels yes openings matter.   For the other 99+% of us?  Not so much.

Are you really trying to argue that openings don't matter for more than 99% of players? That is nonsense...

IMKeto
nTzT wrote:
IMKeto wrote:
CouldntFindAGoodUsername wrote:

Just curious to know...

Depends on the skill level of the players.  At the elite levels yes openings matter.   For the other 99+% of us?  Not so much.

Are you really trying to argue that openings don't matter for more than 99% of players? That is nonsense...

Im not arguing anything.  I stated an opinion.  I am still allowed to do that.

ALKAHAWLIK_POTTY420

the nerds will whine and complain if you play an opening that they do not like. All the more reason to use those specific ones if you know how to with with em. (london, caro kahn, bongcloud etc)

tygxc

Openings do not matter below grandmaster level. Middle game tactics decide games, regardless of opening. Engines destroy grandmasters with any bad opening imposed on them.

Spielkalb
tygxc wrote:

Openings do not matter below grandmaster level. Middle game tactics decide games, regardless of opening. 

This statement is blatantly wrong. If you blunder your opening, you'll be slaughtered even before the middle game even starts. In each and every game, from beginners to world champions, the opening decides the set-up for your your pieces. It's an important part of the game.

We can discuss about the merits of learning opening theories, but to say that openings were irrelevant for players beyond GM level is simply false. 

Jenium
NikkiLikeChikki wrote:

Improving their theory is the only thing they can control. No number of puzzles that I do will help me visualize better. It's just not going to happen.

I believe most lower rated players who spend most of their time learning opening variations try to find a short cut to victory. It is like they want the reward without having to do the work. At least that was true for me. Memorizing opening lines is easy and it is very tempting to believe you can beat a high rated player just by preparing a trappy GM line. Eventually I realized that it was a waste of time. Even if you manage to get into that prepared line once every 100 games or so, you still need to finish the game yourself.  So even if you feel that you cannot improve at calculating or tactics, there are many things to work on that are more rewarding in terms of becoming a better chess player: reading a basic book on strategy, understanding simple pawn endgames, learning strategical patterns etc... Of course, if you enjoy studying openings for the sake of studying openings, there is nothing wrong with that. After all, for most of us chess is not a profession and improving doesn't have to be a priority. 

eric0022
Spielkalb wrote:
tygxc wrote:

Openings do not matter below grandmaster level. Middle game tactics decide games, regardless of opening. 

This statement is blatantly wrong. If you blunder your opening, you'll be slaughtered even before the middle game even starts. In each and every game, from beginners to world champions, the opening decides the set-up for your your pieces. It's an important part of the game.

We can discuss about the merits of learning opening theories, but to say that openings were irrelevant for players beyond GM level is simply false. 

 

Though I do not always agree with IMKeto, tygxc and other regulars' opinions, I am not of a strong view of the openings myself.

 

Of course, it would be good to learn openings. However, your arguments about "slaughtering" is made with an assumption - that the player who manages to "slaughter" the opponent will win the game.

 

Winning a game is dictated by situations such as checkmate, winning on time, disqualification etc. However, you would not find a clause in the rules of chess which states that "a game is won by a player who outplays the opponent in the opening stage".

 

The opening stage, yes, can be crucial and can be a "means" to a winning or more comfortable position in the middlegame. However, it pains me to see how quite a number of my opponents, who impressed me in their opening, suddenly made irrational moves out of nowhere after the opening phase. It feels to me as though they studied opening extensively, but at the end of the day, their inferiority in tactics and endgame knowledge seem to cause their fall.

 

These players mostly lose their games against me (other than a handful who draws or wins because I blundered later on in the game after I wrestled control of the middlegame).

 

The point which tygxc is trying to make is that for the majority of us, emphasis should be placed more towards tactics, and if I were to add, endgame knowledge.

eric0022
nTzT wrote:

To me when I study an opening, I study the ideas that follow. It has helped me so much. I am more familiar with the ideas and tactics that are common in certain openings, they even end in certain types of endgames and I think all of it has to be studied as a whole. You can't just memorize a move and think it will benefit your Chess in the long-run. 


 

But then, your rating is already commendable by the time you touched on openings. I am pretty certain you started out with tactics and endgames as well up to (probably?) 1500 before you moved on to openings and hit your 2000 rating in rapid.

eric0022
nTzT wrote:
MaxedWarrior999 wrote:

Well my opinion is that it does not matter as long as the opening is played correctly

So you are then saying it does matter...

 

Now, this one...

sndeww

Well, no, but actually yes

Stil1

Do openings matter? Yes, to the extent that you don't want to get checkmated in the opening ... or start the middle-game with a completely losing position.

Does opening theory matter? Not so much ... at least, not until you reach a higher level.

To support my argument, I'll play an opening against one of the computer Bots here ... and I'll use none of my opening knowledge. I'll just play on principles as much as possible.

I chose Noam, because it says he's rated "Master" (2200), and I'd like to test this theory on a bot that plays relatively strong openings. I'll also give Noam white:

 

1.d4 d5

Noam-BOT played d4. So I went with opening principle and played d5, opening with a pawn to the center.

2. c4 c6

I know the theory Queen's Gambit Declined, which is why I always play ...e6 here. But I want to show, in this example, that one can play without theory, so I chose ...c6 here, defending the d5 pawn with the same pawn (c-pawn) that white is using to attack it. I don't play the Slav, nor do I know any theory in it.

3. Nc3 Nf6

White is adding more pressure to the d-pawn, by attacking it with a developing knight. So I respond in kind: defending the d-pawn with a developing knight. Now I'm one step closer to castling.

4. e3 g6

Using principles, I want to develop my king bishop at this point (to castle as soon as possible). but if I play ...e5 here, white can simply capture my pawn. And if I play ...e6, my queen bishop will be shut in, and will take longer for it to get active. So the only other possible move, to develop my king bishop, is ...g6, planning a fianchetto.

5. Nf3 Bg7

White appears to be following principles, as well. He has developed his king knight, and is now closer to being castled. I continue with my plan: developing my king bishop into the little nook that ...g6 left for it.

6. Bd3 0-0

White gets his last kingside piece developed. I complete my principled plan: castle early.

7. 0-0 dxc4

I want to develop my queen bishop to g4 next (that was the whole point of playing ...Bg7 ... to keep a diagonal open so I could develop my queen bishop. But there is tension on d5, that I've noticed. If I play ...bg4 now, white could play: c4xd5. I would be forced to take back: c6xd5. But then white could play: Qb3. And now my b7 pawn is being attacked, as it is now undefended.

 

This might be fine for black, but I'd rather finish my development before allowing any sort of tactical complications. So I play dxc4 first, to stop that line, and to allow ...Bg4 next.

8. Bxc4 Bg4

As planned, now I've developed my bishop to an active square. I plan to develop my queen knight next, if possible.

9. h3 Bxf3

White "puts the question" to my bishop. Will I retreat, or exchange? I choose to exchange, so I can continue with my plan of rapid, principled development.

10. Qxf3 Nbd7

Voila! I've developed my last minor piece. The opening has been a success so far, and I don't play this line, nor do I have any knowledge of its theory. Based on my principled play so far, though, I suspect black is doing completely fine.

11. Rd1

Now we enter what I would call the middle-game. Possible ideas for black: ...Qc7 (to get off the same file as white's rook, ...e6 (to clamp down on the d5 square), perhaps an ...e5 pawn push, after first checking to see if the tactics work ... black's rooks will probably go to e8 and d8 ... and so on, and so forth.