dutch defense better version of kings indian?

I've been playing the king's indian lately, but I'm starting to think "why not play f5 before Nf6?" It prevents e4 and the knight can go right behind it. In the kings indian, when black does a pawn storm he usually has to awkwardly move his knight to somewhere just to play f5. This should save black a few moves!

its better to play it against 1.d4 than e4. if white plays 2 Qh4 you need to play g6 and then all the king side pawns are out early and you get stuck with a weak kingside. or they wil play e5 preventing your knight from coming out in the first place...also e4xf5. both of the latter plays create early passed pawns. 1. e4 - f5 is the Fred defense = Dead defense not the dutch defense - 1.d4 - f5 up to you if you like this line of play...but its a dangerous one. i tried this line before...it doesn't fare well.

Phillydan you have said that you are an unorthodox chess player. By this I think you mean you don't study theory all that much. If you were interested in playing the dutch start by looking at some games. Abramovic-Botvinnik, 1924 is an interesting dutch by Botvinnik. Here is the link http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1031633.

Also, don't play f5 against e4 (unless you want to see if you can defend against white or you are trying to teach someone about king safety or a number of other things).

Also, I forgot to add that I think Elubas made an interesting point about the kings indian in comparison with the dutch. In the kings indian black usually plays for f5 and the knight at f6 can vex one horribly. I think I will look into the dutch more. I have played it before, but never really looked into it much. I too got into a rut with the kings indian defence some time ago.

1 e4 f5 is probably the worst response to e4. it loses a pawn for no compensation since black can't play e5 because of en passant. In fact, black's king is even weakened.

Hi guys I think Elubus is not talking about playing 1.e4 f5.  I dont know why anyone brought that up. 

The dutch is a defence against 1.d4. 

In the main line KID (Kings Indian Defence) e4 is played on the 4th move or later. As far as I can tell this is what Elibus was referring to when he said that the dutch stops e4.

But It doesnt necessarily stop e4!

My favorite line against the dutch is the Staunton Gambit.

1.d4 f5 2.e4! fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 and I'm not giving away my secrets after that! :D

The ideas behind the to opening are slightly different. In the dutch your not going to beable to play e5 in most lines where in the KID e5 is played in most lines.

trentthechessnut ...i read your comment and you were right...i misread the comment...sorry guys, it happens.

Actually in the leningrad dutch for instance, black is preparing e5 by moves like 6...d6 and 7...Qe8. and most of the time black is able to play e5.

and that looks like a kings indian except of course white's pawn is not on e4. black can try playing e4 himself if he wants. Why not play the dutch like a kings indian?

the decisive question in the leningrad is: If white plays early d4-d5, (before black plays e7-e5), can he exploit the weaknesses in the black camp (e7,e6,f7)?

This question has nothing to do with Kings indian.

looks like i'm not the only one that couldn't read there!!!! LMAO

Ok

are there any drawbacks to it besides the weakening?

no. The efforts to exploit the delay in development (like Staunton's gambit, 1. d4 f5 2. e4) are considered as not dangerous by the theoreticions.

Hi,

in my opinion you have mostly been discussing moves without mentioning the underlying strategies.

Of course, both the Dutch and the King's Indian are well respected and playable openings, but they have completely different initial ideas.

The Dutch (1.d4 f5) is a bit more classic: Black contests the centre, albeit not with a central pawn. Thereby he prevents White from occupying the full centre with his pawns, and in the event of a pawn exchange on e4 he will have a central pawn majority and the semi-open f-file supporting a kingside attack.

The Kings Indian is a hypermodern opening where Black allows White to occupy the centre only to to strike back at it later, so he isn't afraid of White playing e4 at all; it's part of his strategy. Often it occurs that after the typical counter e7-e5 by Black, White closes the centre with d4-d5. Now is the time where Black often implements his plan of f7-f5 (after having moved the knight out of the way). The ferocious wing attacks with f5-f4 and g6-g5-g4 which often follow this are a result of the closed centre, because it would be hazardous for Black to bare his king like that with an open centre.

Therefore the initial question of this thread "Is the Dutch a better version of the King's Indian?" has to be answered "no". Playing f7-f5 eariler and without loss of time just leads to completely different positions, as the closed centre, which is the main feature of the typical King's Indian f5-attack, has not yet occurred.

That notwithstanding, I would recommend you to play a few games with each opening to get a feel which of them suits your character better.

so if I do the set up d6 and e5 (and f5) it's not so strong because white didn't play e4? so black basically wants white to play e4 in the kings indian? It's a little counterintuitive but I think I can understand that. I was always wondering this too: if white has more pawns in the center (c4, d4, e4) why doesn't he do the pawn storm? Is it because e4 isn't as well supported as e5? In Reuben Fine's book about openings, he says that playing d5 and e6 is much stronger than playing d6 and e5 in the dutch, but I just wanted to know why.

I'm not too familiar with the subtleties of the Dutch Defence, so I'm not sure if Fine's verdict still holds, but definitely there are alternatives to the e6+d5 setup. I suppose you can well play d6+e5, but generally the battle in the centre will be preeminent rather than a pawn storm on the wing - unless, of course, the centre is closed by the d4-d5 push.

As to the King's Indian, the pattern of White storming on the queenside with b4 and c4-c5 and Black on the kingside with f5-f4 and g6-g5-g4 is just the most common one. There are plenty of examples where White generates a kingside pawn storm, too, both after having castled short or long. It's this richness of different strategies which makes the King's Indian such an unbalanced and exciting weapon.

not really, but that's a drawback...

well I know of the 4 pawns attack with white but again according to fine it's not good because white's center is very open to attack, though I'm not sure if that's still true. I personally don't like playing the main line kings indian as white because with my queenside play I usually either get nothing or just an extra pawn, which I can't always count on converting in the endgame. It's easier to just attack the king. So if the 4 pawns attack is sound I might be interested in it.