Facing the Caro Kann

What is the sideline?

Some of the posts are on-target, some are off-target. Here are my notes:

1. I just don't think any Caro-Kann player who knows the defense will have a problem with any f3-style Blackmar-Diemer gambit.
2. I've played the Caro-Kann for many years. I don't play 1.e4, but in a Caro-Kann tournament I played in on chess.com recently, I played the Panov-Botvinnik attack exclusively as white. (1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4). As pointed out above, it is basically a d4-style game where white gets an isolated queen's pawn. As you can imagine, some of the main positions can be reached from more than one opening (Queen's Gambit Tarrasch or Nimzo-Indian are two examples).
3. If I had only 30 minutes to prepare someone to play the white side, I would recommend the simple exchange variation, without c4. It's not a variation which is theoretically critical, but winning a theoretical battle against a well-prepared opponent is not the goal. The goal is getting a playable middlegame where you are at least equal. For reference, the moves might be 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 Nf6 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.Nbd2 e6 8.o-o Bd6 etc. White is playing a queen's gambit exchange variation a tempo up. Can't be bad.
4. Recently I've been having trouble against the Advance Variation, specifically the Short Variation where white plays Nf3, Be2, o-o, and tries to exploit the absence of black's queen's bishop on the queenside.
5. I'm assuming that the bayonet attack is 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.g4?!. I don't think much of this move. An expert-level player played it against me recently in a tournament, and didn't get anything out of the opening. Apparently he said that black usually plays 4. ...Bg6?, which kind of justifies white's play (white can play 5.e6, sacrificing the e pawn with compensation). But I played 4. ...Bd7!, followed by ...Qc8, and (I think) ...h5. My opponent said that "basically everybody plays 4. ...Bg6, except once when I played this against GM Sergey Kudrin, who played ...Bd7. So when you played ...Bd7 I knew that you knew what you were doing". Pretty cool, to be compared with Mr. Kudrin.

-- Ozzie

 There are a bunch of holes in your analysis.  Your first line is something I have played a lot and believe to be slightly better for White.  If somebody doesn't know a long list of theory here, this can be very dangerous for Black with the g2-g4 pawn sacrifice.  You're advance variation lines are very poor to say the least.  A solid position after e6?  White can play g4 and the solid position goes out the wazoo.  If c5, then White is not obligated to take.  Even if he follows the main move order and captures, there are not guarantees that Black will win back the pawn.  Even if he does, he may have wasted too much time and equality is not yet reached.

Ozzie- The Bayonet is 4. Nc3 hoping for e6.  Then Bd7 is not an option.  White has recently been very well scoring against e6, so many players are playing waiting moves such as Qb6 or h5.  White gets a spatial advantage against Qb6 usually and a weakness-free and solid position if h5.

Uhh...dude? It is your analysis that has holes in it! I am getting my information from GM players. After 5.g4 Bg6 6.Nge2 c5 7.h4 h6 8.Be3 Nc6 9.f4 Qb6, both players will have winning chances. Equality has been reached, you ninny. Maybe you should read a little more about such speculative attacks such as the Bayonet Attack that every top player will tell you is almost ludicrous.

Obviously, if the Caro-Kann has been proven to be sound after 4...e6 after lengthy analysis by players that are much better than either of us, and I am drawing from these player's analysis, my lines will be rock-solid; and much more playable and dynamic than sporadic and unorthodox lines that modern players have found to be unsound.

Wait - white has been doing well recently after 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 e6 5.g4 Bg6

I didn't get the memo. I think you're about 25 years late on that one, this line was very popular in the early 80s.

Though I don't agree that black "has a very solid position" after e6. Solid and equality are not the words for the position. It is very tactical. That being said, I believe black is holding his own.

Also, to the above poster who says that black has "a very good position" after 10. ...e6 in the main line: I think the opposite is true. In practice, white has a nagging edge in the position. I saw that position reached several times in the recent tournament I went to, and black did not do well.

I never enter the main lines after g4, I typically play this line:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 e6 5.g4 Bg6 6.Nge2 Be7

 Some guy named Kramnik seems to agree with you!  He played the 4 h4 line when he was in a "must win" scenario in the last game of his World Championship match against Peto Leko.  Kramnik won the game, and retained his title.

 In in an old Chess Digest booklet on the Caro-Kann, Jeremy Silman wrote that Black should play 4...Bg6 after 1 e4 c6  2 d4 d5  3 e5 Bf5  4 g4.  He didn't mention the White retort 5 e6, but I've read elsewhere that Black is fine after 5...Qd6!.  White threatens 6...Qxe6, and 6 exf7+ Bxf7 doesn't seem bad for Black, IMO. 

In one of his repertoire books, Andrew Soltis recommended your 4...Bd7.  If I remember correctly, BCO-2 recommended 4...Be4.

I'm a big KC player, and my suggestion is the PBA; a lot of advance lines seem to play into the positional strengths of KC players 

Maybe the player who was using Black wasn't so good; I don't know. I have had good results with the Caro-Kann, but that's just up to preference. Black can certainly hold his own after e6 in the Advance Variation, and I challenge anyone here to find me five decent games where two high-level players have played this variation and Black has lost without too many blunders.

Since the caro-kann has to be one of the LEAST intimidating openings (Oh god no!  His position is SOLID!  Quickly I must memorize opening lines to move 20 ) I would suggest not studying too deeply.  Tactics Tactics Tactics no?

Gonnosuke, this fits with your theme of REALLY hating to play white against the Caro-Kann.

So I'm curious - what are the types of openings, or types of positions, where you think that black is avoiding these, by playing the Caro? I'm curious because then I should study those, to fill in any holes in my game.

Thanks in advance,

-- Ozzie

Tactics, tactics, tactics? Only if you're an attacking player. If you're a positional guy, then it's location, location, location.

Fromper

Frogive me for analyzing your psychology here, but I think you have the same problems with the Caro as I had early in my carreer--you want to attack like in a Sicilian or a French, but the Caro won't let you.  There are some violent lines in the Advance Variation, and there are some good games by Tal and Kasparov in this line.  But, to me, the line that turned the Caro-Kann into the Caro Kan't is the Panov-Botvinnik Attack.  Not only does it take Black out of the comfort zones afforded by lines like the Classical and Exchange Variations, it gives Black the chance to play for the Isolated Queen Pawn position.  While this may have long term ending problems, "before the endgame the gods have placed the middlegame."  Learning how to play the IQP positions will give you an amazing insight into the game--a properly timed d5! (often sacrificing it) can explode the center and lead to violently shifting piece play--something Caro players play 1...c6 to avoid.  The freedom to attack Black in this line is something you just don't get in other lines.  And even if you lose, you've had all the fun.  For the future, check this line out--I don't think you will be disappointed.

But for now, with the deadline of a tourney staring you in the face, my recommendation to you is to try the King's Indian Attack against the Caro.  Both sides will develope comfortably, with equal chances to screw up the middlegame.  And isn't that all you really need?

As a life long 1.e4 player I have faced the Caro many times. While I am sure many will scream, I do not think it is a good defence for players under 1800 as it is very slow and positional and a few mistakes leave Black with a horrible game. I crushed many people this way. I have always played the Panov as it leave White with an open position. I really do not spend too much time on theory as I know the basic concepts. 2 . c4 or 3. e5 are also good logical approaches for White.

While I don't agree with the sentiment that the Panov attack "turns the Caro-Kann into the Caro-Kant", I do agree that it puts lasting pressure on the black position. This is why I play it as white.

But that lasting pressure comes at a cost, the isolated queen's pawn. If white doesn't know how to play the position, before he knows it he'll just be defending d4. If black doesn't know how to play the position, he will find himself defending against a monster white onslaught for the entire game, and will quite likely lose.

So, what have we learned? Well the isolated queen pawn position is just one of those staple positions in chess where you have to learn the ideas from both sides. If you do, you will find that you score with both black and white.

And to show that I walk what I talk, I had the exact same IQP position as white against a 2400 FM and as black against a 2450 IM - I won with white and drew with black.

Daniel, I was talking about Black having a solid position.  And Ozzie, I really thought White had been scoring well with it.  Guess I'm 20 years behind! :)

A good line is solid, yes? And if 4...e6 is good (As I have already proved.) then isn't it also solid?

Maybe not solid enough to endure the entire middlegame, but enough to ensure winning chances for Black.

ozzie_c_cobblepot

I hope you'll notice that I wrote "to me."  I'm only saying that the Panov works for me, though I'll bet that if I played a 2400 in it it would once again be the Caro Kann.    And I agree with you totally about having to know how to play the isolani.  Again, to me, the isolani is a line you simply must know if you are going to be a strong player--you need to know how to attack with it, and how to defend against it.  I think it's fun to play either side of the position.  But I simply cannot recommend the line to someone who has only a few days before a tounament; you'll never get the feel for it in the time available.  That's why I recommended the KIA; there aren't that many critical lines to review, and it's pretty solid for someone who keeps getting blown away by Black in the other lines.  That's all I was trying to say.

Sure, well put.

I recommend the simple exchange variation for exactly the same reason. White is playing a queen's gambit exchange variation a tempo up. Can't be bad.

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 Nf6 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.o-o e6 8.Nbd2 Bd6 9.Re1 o-o etc.........