French, advance, Euwe variation Nh6

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Nordlandia
What's black's compensation for doubled h-pawns.
PeskyGnat

I don't know the variation, I'm slowly learning the advance French myself, but from what I see:

- Black could make use of the open g-file with the rooks to stir up counterplay against white's king side

- I've seen some lines where Black plays Bg7 with the idea of f6, undermining the entire White center

- Black has the bishop pair (but would ideally need to open the position for this imbalance to be worth something)

Here's a nice game illustrating Black's ideas of Bg7, f6 and a strong B-pair

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1708352

TwoMove

Can't black play ne7 if he wants, and avoid the whole issue?

Nordlandia
TwoMove wrote:

Can't black play ne7 if he wants, and avoid the whole issue?

Seems preferable in my opinion. 

 

Nordlandia
Nordlandia
chessmicky wrote:

Two bishops, open g-file. Looks fine for Black

The position is closed, i think the knight pair (excels in closed positions) + the doubled-h pawns offset the pair advantage plenty enough, to give white the edge in the long run. 

TwoMove

It makes more sense to play nh6 after qb6 rather than bd7 because there after ne7 d4xc5 is a bit of a problem

TwoMove

Alternatively 5...nh6 to keep maximum flexibility. After 5..bd7 ne7 can go to f5 or g6.

ThrillerFan
Nordlandia wrote:
TwoMove wrote:

Can't black play ne7 if he wants, and avoid the whole issue?

Seems preferable in my opinion. 

 

The main problem with ...Nge7 in the advance French is that it allows Na3 by White without White having to worry about a tradeoff on a3.  The Knight will relocate to c2 and strengthen his hold on d4, which is White's only real weakness.

Robert_New_Alekhine

The doubled h-pawns are not a weakness. The knights need not only a closed position, but outpost squares. They don't have that in this position. Black, however, can open the game with a timely f6, and can also make use of the g-file.

Robert_New_Alekhine
TwoMove wrote:

It makes more sense to play nh6 after qb6 rather than bd7 because there after ne7 d4xc5 is a bit of a problem

If you know anything about french, then you should know that black is not worried about dxc5 in most cases. THe e5 pawn is weakened, and the c5 pawn is almost always won back.

PeskyGnat

The first game in this article sums up Nh6, Bxh6 ideas rather nicely

http://www.chess.com/article/view/the-advance-variation-of-the-french-defence

yureesystem

Black has compensation for double h-pawns, if  strong grandmasters play the black side of Euwe variation it must be good.

Nckchrls

The upside from the ...Nh6 French Advance line could be limited.

It might work well if Black's well prepared and White's not. There are more than a few examples where White doesn't bite on Bxh6 figuring a prepped line. I recall a Kamsky-Kasparov game where I believed White passed on the take.

And it probably works good if Black can use his dark square strength to undermine d4 & e5. As Korchnoi, who played the line a bit, showed

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1084055

Black probably also figures the Kside weakness, though clear, isn't the easiest to exploit as it is a lot f6 & h6 dark and h7 dependent on White LSB. So maybe decent Black winning chances if White loses his way. If White plays well certainly possible losing chances though maybe equally probable drawing chances.

This might be seen in the Stockfish - Komodo presentation. At 25. to 28., Black doesn't seem worse and may have had good drawing chances making sure the LSB's were exchanged. It's unclear why it looked as if Black played like he (it) thought he was better, losing 3 tempo between 29. and 35. and his position appeared to get a lot worse. It'd be interesting to see if there's alternate Black play where keeps equality.

Interestingly, Korchnoi must've figured the h6 trade to get the dark square advantage was worth investigating as in other games he played ...h5 before ...Nh6 I guess to try to limit the weaknesses but still hold the strengths.

Nordlandia

The doubled h-pawns is clearly an issue once the game enter the endgame. 

For example in the computer game i posted above, Komodo lost probably because his pawns was damaged so severly. 

Robert_New_Alekhine
Fiveofswords wrote:

black has plenty of compensation for the structural damage...in fact i wouldnt take the knight if i were white. for one thing black achieved the 'minor exchange'...but basically he traded a piece with little scope for a piece with good scope. whites dsb is often needed to cover weak dark squares (for example b2 and d4) while the kside knight often struggles to find any purpose at all in this structure. for another thing the damaged pawns arent such a big deal because they are not on an open file and they are on the edge...to attack them white has to focus pieces on the edge the capture then hope he has time to return to the center. and also the open g file is very relevant. i dont know why white wouldnt simply use the move g4 to try and keep this knight passive.

Most people do not take the knight.

TwoMove
Robert0905 wrote:
TwoMove wrote:

It makes more sense to play nh6 after qb6 rather than bd7 because there after ne7 d4xc5 is a bit of a problem

If you know anything about french, then you should know that black is not worried about dxc5 in most cases. THe e5 pawn is weakened, and the c5 pawn is almost always won back.

In the particular case mentioned, with black queen on b6, white has good chances after 7dxc5 Qxc5 8b4etc or 7...Qc7 Nd4 etc. So you need to be a bit careful making sweeping generalities.

TwoMove

In the Euwe variation with 6...Ng-e7, white would like the idea with 7Na3 to work. Black has a few ideas to combat it though. In "Playing the French" the recommended line is 7...pxp 8pxp Ng6 planning be7 and f6 attacking the front of the pawn chain. For example 9h4 Be7 10g3 0.0 11h5 nh8. The knight may seen out of play, but after f6 followed by nf7, the pressure on e5 pawn will mount.

So black has some quite subtle ideas in the Euwe, 5...Bd7, line. Must admit have more experience with the straightforward Qb6 intending pressuring d4 line.

Likhit1
TwoMove wrote:

In the Euwe variation with 6...Ng-e7, white would like the idea with 7Na3 to work. Black has a few ideas to combat it though. In "Playing the French" the recommended line is 7...pxp 8pxp Ng6 planning be7 and f6 attacking the front of the pawn chain. For example 9h4 Be7 10g3 0.0 11h5 nh8. The knight may seen out of play, but after f6 followed by nf7, the pressure on e5 pawn will mount.

So black has some quite subtle ideas in the Euwe, 5...Bd7, line. Must admit have more experience with the straightforward Qb6 intending pressuring d4 line.

There is one more interesting idea I like in this variation.Just taking on d4,going Qb6,then Na5 and Bb5 exchanging the light squared bishops.

Nordlandia

Pawn structure like this is near equivalent to be an exchange down. By that i refer if the pawns remains on the h-file into the endgame. White have an huge advantage.