French Defense Chigorin Attack

Here are some more recent games that I have played and some against stronger opponents than in my OP examples. Please keep in mind these are all 5/0 or 10/0 blitz games. Again, I'm not saying that 2.Qe2 is objectively the best move according to computer or GM analysis, but that it is a very practical and decent move for sub-2000 rated players to use in order to forget about memorizing openings and force black to start finding moves on the board from move 2.

I also played this game OTB in a USCF rated event last month. Time control was G/85 with 5s delay. Just to show that this opening is totally playable by U2000 players even in classical slow chess.

Take a breath and chill out. I don't see "haters" here. I said that the Chigorin transposes most of the time in a King's Indian Attack after the move I suggested... Being myself a King's Indian Attack player...

You score well against it on chess.com? Congratulations, you probably play online seriously while some other (including me kof kof) start 5 min games where they read articles at the same time, watch TV, nod to their girlfriend and pray that their third world-like internet connection will not shut down (shame here).

You score well too OTB? Congratulations, you're just... good.

In any case, it is not an ego contest: the only objective and relevant point here is that both your perfectly fine variation and the perfectly fine ...Be7 are played at Grandmaster level with decent scores on both sides.

You said you did not know about theory. As a French player OTB, I offered you answers about which line I would pick, why, and I even digged up lines played by Chigorin himself for entertainment and learning purposes. If your point was just to show your mighty victories and that these answers bothered you (though there is nothing to be bothered about), tell us, next time I would just save my time ;) . 

Not even mentionning that in the OTB game you show your opponent go YOLO on the opening as soon as move 5 with the awful ...Nb4?!.

Of course the Chigorin variation is playable U2000 (and even above), nobody said that it's not, but this game is definitely not the best example possible.

PS: Please don't focus on this side comment, instead of # 23

Regarding the Chigorin variation, he just said that "2.Qe2 offers no kind of advantage".Chess.com is full of Captains Obvious, wait to meet the real haters and egomaniacs, that's something. :/

I don't think the gambit he suggested is dubious (maybe not the most challenging try though). White gets a fine position with quick development (hey, that's the idea behind most gambits) if Black accepts the offer. Actually, according to chesstempo database, White scores best when Black takes the pawn (probably for the reasons why I suggested to play ...Nf6 instead).

His "troll thread" comment was far from being nice, true, but I don't think he's a hater (in comparison with what I usually see down here...) and he was talking about the move Qh5 you suggested (where GreenCastleBlock advised you to play 3.f4 instead).

There is no face or tone on the internet, sometimes people don't want to be mean when they say such thing. And sometimes, they are just pompous.

I totaly dissagree with Nimzopataz. The move 2. Qe2 vs. the franch opening take most player by surprise. Also at level 1500 to around 1650/1700 ( in my personly experence that is ) alot of player dosen know what to play, and if White can get in to a bit more close position, as in the cloce sicilian defence ( wich is also possible to end op in. ) alot of player plays with out any plan ore knowledge aboud anything.... The idea of playing for 2..c5 3. g3 Nc6 4. Nf3 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6.Bg2 - Nge7.7.0-0 - 0-0. it a nice idea. The position is still close and alot can happen. After moves such as. 8. d3 - Nd4.9.Nxd4 - cxd4.10.Nb5 - d5.11.c3 - dxe4.12.Bxe4 - dxc3 - Nxc3. Give planty to play for. The position is equel. 

How ever. If you are a Nimzo fan ( Wich I imagine you are, sins you have Nimzo in your nick name. You shout know that 1.e4 - e6.2.Qe2 - e5 ?! is a tempi lost, sins Black move the same piece twise, with ( infact ) no reason what so ever. I kind of like the idea of 3.f4 - .. It shout give White a small + in the long run. I cant help my self thinking that 3. Nf3 - Nc6.4.c3 - Nf6.5.d4 - .. shot give what the upper hand. In the long run...

But of couse... Chess is not an easy game. But thats why wee LOVE IT... :-)misterbasic...... If you like the Chigorin variation, keep plying it. I aggree to your "love " for this line. I have also notes that I win alot more games wehn faceing the Franch opening, useing this system. So keep it op. It is an interesting line, and I think it is definitely worth playing.....

For some reason chess.com calls the Reti Gambit: "French Defense: Horwitz, Papa-Ticulat Gambit"

Any book I can read about The Chigorin Variation?

Thank you.

Nice one

@Argull1966 I have never seen an actual book on the Chigorin. One has to cobble it together from games and maybe old-fashioned things like BCO. But it's one of those openings in which a sense of where the pieces belong will get you through. I used to play it back when I was some good at this game (last century) but to be honest gave it up when I realised I'd never play Qe2 before Bd3 against Owen's Defence and 2..., b3 is perfectly playable for Black in the Chigorin.

Thank you Ralph, yes about the technical things I know enough and I have a lot of games with it, but a book can help to me to put the games in a better order. If I don't find it, I'll try with yhe ECO and after I'll check with the games and the engine.

@Argull1966 Mainly in the hope it might be of use, but I must confess partly because it's probably the best game I have ever played, here's one of my efforts in the Chigorin; from my best ever year for chess understanding and strength. I was graded 2000, my opponent was about 2200 and was gracious enough in defeat to compliment me on my play.

I've been playing Qe2 myself... I think there's alot more value to this move than has been recognized here.

Here are the stats for blacks 2nd move at 2200+ elo rapid/blitz on lichess:

When you analyze a rare, offbeat line you don't just consider the sharpest engine refutation to it and end your analysis there. You look at the statistics at a given elo and play toward that. Otherwise you are allowing neuroticism to neuter your repertoire. Chess is a game where the eval fluctuates wildly all throughout, you can win inferior positions with superior positional understanding. But if otherwise in your line you wind up with an advantage 97% of the time... you're playing a great line, and you should just tolerate the 3% disadvantage.

Okay, so the best lines for black are 2... c5 and 2... Be7.

But the most common response is 2... d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. Nc6. This is basically a Scandinavian, it will probably transpose completely in a few moves. For white to basically transpose a french into a Scandinavian almost half the time is a huge win. It's not just a win within the french, it keeps your Scandinavian play sharp as well

White can combine this with playing the accelerated panov vs. the caro-kann, a phenomenal line in its own right, which also transposes into a Scandinavian-type position in many cases... This is a great repertoire, especially for an online player:

With this repertoire I'm ending up in a Scandinavian type position like 15% of my games as white. And infact, Qe2 / g3 are useful moves in the Scandinavian.

Okay... the other most common move is 2... c5. This plays more like a sicilian than a french defense. That's a good thing for players who play the black side of the sicilian, especially the french sicilian...

Furthermore, as white if you play the Snyder or Westerenin attack against the sicilian you can get a very similar position here in the french. The Westerenin is one of the better anti-sicilians.. it's probably the best anti-sicilian against the french sicilian. And in the french chigorin b3 is an objectively good move as well.

Depending on blacks responses many different common sicilian patterns may arise.

Here's a schveningen type position, d6 is played 20% of the time -

Here's a nimzowitsch sicilian like position, Nf6 is played 38% of the time here -

There are many other common sicilian patterns.

Obviously Qe2 isn't an ideal move in the sicilian, but you can still make use of it - after O-O-O the rook is on the d file, you can throw the kingside pawns forward quickly thanks to the queen as well. You'll just have to solve the LSB issue. But if you play sharpy and black makes a small inaccuracy you're going to wind up in a strong sicilian style attacking position

Now... for 2.. Be7, which occurs 9% of the time, you can just play a KIA. Which many people just play outright against the french defense. Nothing wrong with that position for white. But this isn't the main thing to worry about because it's not the most common move anyway.

The main value of the french chigorin is in how it synergizes with the rest of whites repertoire. In playing this white both denies black the familiarity advantage, and plays strongly to his own familiarity.

This is very interesting, if they paly in the Scandinavian way I think it is easy to play for white. engines are engines; my question always about engines is: "The engine is thinking 30 movements ahead; how much my opponent do?

5-6, ok what happens if we don't let the enginge to think more than 5 movements?