This is always fun to play:
I agree, this is always fun to play. However, before playing you MUST learn how the pieces are moving.
I don't get it. Camberfoil does not know how the pieces move?
prfen is pointing out that after Camberfoil's 4th move
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 Nc6
3. Bc4 Bc5
4. Ng5
That any 800 rated player would have simply played Qxg5 and white's best move is to resign.
One plays d4.
Why do engines think the traxler is lost for black?
I have not done any engine checks on the traxler;however, I would like to make my opinion on why it may consider it losing. *Disclaimer* I haven't checked it personally so I don't know 100%
Black usually sacs the bishop which might be 1 reason why it favor's white but it is a very sharp line and I believe an engine might see the way white wiggles in like 30 moves lol or something but a human on the other hand might not. Usually people who are black playing the Traxler lol are well versed in it. The reason is becuase many black players playing the Bc5 instead of d5. I have found in large part that those people who do play Bc5 and enter into the Traxler know all the precise moves lol before they sac there bishop and the white players usually get cremed becuase they either forget the theory or don't know it that well.
Yes it is actually quite an interesting theoretical exercise when showing the inadequacies with just an engine in the Traxler.
Lets look at the 5.Nxf7 variation. It is difficult for the engine to notice the incoming initiative since it doesn't become apparant until at least depth 30 from the starting position. But that just gets to the start of the problem positions for white and you still have to go another 10-15 moves further to realize it fully to accurately assess the position. According to theory, 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ is fully equal. White cannot find a way to an advantage against that line.
A very common anti-computer line I used against the centaur players on here was:
Now lets evaluate the position using some common engines:
Komodo 8 - Depth 22 at 1.73
Stockfish 5 - Depth 25 at 1.82
For comparison with an older engine:
Crafty 19.3 - Depth 14 at 3.87
Now I didn't go as far with crafty, but I stopped every engine after five minutes for consistency. It just goes to show how much better the modern engines are.
While the newer engines are improvements, they still cannot properly evaluate that position as completely equal. Even more remarkable is the fact while they guessed the main line correct (9.d6), they would get the rest of the line incorrect.
You see some of the similar themes occurring in the other lines, but black has more problems reaching an equal or even playable position. 5.Bxf7+ is certainly a good variation although the correct replies for black are generally not given in most texts. However, despite the hidden improvements, the line still poses problems in some variations. There is also 5.d4 as well, but nobody plays it so there is little to go off on.
Then why doesn't everybody play 3.Bc4?
Because 3.Bc4 doesn't force the Fried Liver Attack.
But then why des everybody play 3..Nf6?
To further the point, why do some people still play Nxd5?
Most people who play Nxd5 don't know any better.
GM Sulskis played it
And he won?
It is not 'the' main line. There are tons of 'main' lines in an opening as complicated as the Fried Liver. Black does have an advantage if he plays the Fritz variation (Nd4 after exd5) and even after exd5 Nxd5. The latter was only recently proven, and is something like 10 moves deep. I'll post the line when I find it
It is not 'the' main line. There are tons of 'main' lines in an opening as complicated as the Fried Liver. Black does have an advantage if he plays the Fritz variation (Nd4 after exd5) and even after exd5 Nxd5. The latter was only recently proven, and is something like 10 moves deep. I'll post the line when I find it
At absolute best Black is fighting for a draw in the Fritz and the related Ulvestad. As for the Fried Liver, saying Black has an advantage after Nxd5 is ridiculous. He might find a way to equality after 6.Nxf7, but it doesn't give him a fun game at all, and I think Black's just plain worse in all lines after 6.d4. So what lines can you give us that prove it otherwise?
Ok so I found the line I was referring to, but my laptop isn't letting me post in the forums and my phone doesn't let me input games, so I will try again later.
Ok so I found the line I was referring to, but my laptop isn't letting me post in the forums and my phone doesn't let me input games, so I will try again later.
If it's just one single line, you can enter it in as text, starting with move 5.
I found the line that I was referring to:
And this isn't something I found myself; a Russian Grandmaster whose name I could never catch through his accent taught me and my school's chess team this in October last year. So if any lines I've added are inaccurate it's because I can't remember what he told us or I just made it up myself.
My point is that Nxd5 is winning for Black, and as far as I know, the Fritz is better for Black than White because of the ease at which his Queen can counterattack:
I'm not as certain about Black's inevitable success with the Fritz variation as I am with the Nxd5 line, and this is just one trap. But I don't see how 'at best, Black is fighting for a draw'
I'm not so arrogant as to claim that I definitely couldn't have missed anything, but I think your claims that White has absolute victory are a little exaggerated, to say the least.
Any chance you can get off your high horse and provide some proper analysis to refute the lines I am providing, rather than 'this is much better for White'?
For a vegan (nom nom nom....tasty !), you sure like fried liver.
Veganomnomnom wrote:
Well, you're the one who said Black is winning after Nxd5, a view no serious chess player shares.
6...exd4 in the Lolli actually is bad. You were right to play 6...Nxd4 but you followed it up badly.
In the Fritz variation, 10.O-O Bb7 11.Qf3 is the winning line for White. 11...Rb8 12.dxe5 Ne3 13.Qh3 and Black has to trade into a bad ending.
In the Fried Liver, 12.dxc3 is winning completely, Black just has no play and isn't up any material while White is better developed and has a safer king.
I also said that I was told this by a Russian Grandmaster. He set the position up into the Fried Liver after Nxd5 and had me play as White and continuously commented on how I was 'playing like a master', including 9. a3.
What if 9. ... Nf4 instead of Ne3? It still attacks g2 and discovers the bishop against the queen, plus it defends h3. I agree that the Nxc3 move is bad in that one. Can you tell me the continuation after Na6.
My point is that the Fried Liver is not an instant win for white, and I still agree with the grandmaster who told me it favours black.
This is not to say I would play Nxd5 in a tournament game, as Na5 is much simpler.
The Traxler Counterattack is a pretty neat way to deal with the Fried Liver. After white plays Ng5, go with Bc5