good openings for black?

im looking for some good chess openings for black side, could some give me any? i already know Scandinavian tho

Stick to your Scandinavian and focus on improving your chess instead of learning a new opening.

Scandy is trash!

I recommend changing to something else.

Try Caro Khan or Rubinstein French - Those pawn structures can be very similar.

Scandi is both bad and won't teach you anything. French is a good suggestion, it's a common pawn structure that arises in many sidelines in different openings, it's good to understand how to play it.

The Scandinavian has a dubious reputation, but I believe it's actually fine.

It can hold even at the engine level - so I disagree with those who declare that it's not worth playing.

I played a lot at around the 1800 to 2000 level, and it helped me learn some valuable ideas. It was also quite a lot of fun. Though Black has to be wary of sneaky tactics by White, if he wants to survive unscathed.

What did you learn from it? I suppose you can always learn something. The things you can learn from the Scandi I suspect you can mostly learn from the Caro-Kann, but I'd much rather know the Caro - there's alot more to it and the positions can be reached from a variety of places

@Post #5

Maets Nori has played Scandy 7 times on chess.com which can be found by searching up his games.

Maets Nori has won only 2 times and has lost 5.

If Maets Nori believes going 2-5 is fine, Than me and Maets Nori has different definition of word fine!

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Save yourself OP from the Scandy before it corrupts and ruins you!

Those are all 1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 games, which I've had trouble playing as Black, for sure.

I play either ...d4 or ...dxe here - and I've had mixed results with both.

Technically, this transposes to the "Closed Scandinavian", but this isn't the typical Scandinavian that most players are thinking of when they say "The Scandinavian is bad!"

1.e4 d5 2. exd Qxd is the line that players tend to scoff at.

Regardless, those games of mine were played against 2300-rated opponents - and most of those games were lost due to silly tactical blunders on my part, in the middlegame or ending - not due to the Scandinavian itself.

recently i started playing dutch against d4 and i reall enjoy it

Those games were lost because you decided to play the Scandy! A line known by the masses to have a reputation of being Dubious!

Open Scandy / Closed Scandy - Trash is Trash!

Doesn’t matter how many different ways you say it.

- You didn’t lose because of silly tactic.

- You didn’t lose in middle game.

- You didn’t lose in end game.

You lost in the opening on move 1 when you decided to play 1…d5 against 1.e4.

Hope Chess is what you was playing!

That's the Van Geet transposition, it's not your typical Scandi. We've talked about it lately - there's not something objectively wrong with that position for black, it evaluates slightly better for black by the engine.

Maybe a game like this, played tonight, would convince you to switch to the French.

This is a French Winawer, Fingerslip Variation. I was Black against a 1750ish. 23 move victory with Black.

I play the Caro

If white plays d4, I play the Cambridge Springs

Yes, I enjoy playing the Caro-Kann. Also the Sicilian. I've learned a lot from each of them, as well.

But the Scandinavian has its own unique flavor. I haven't played it much online in the past few years, though I do enjoy playing it in OTB blitz.

Probably the main thing I learned from it was how to play in and around the e6+c6 pawn structure, where Black has no d-pawn and White has no e-pawn.

Sure, this same structure can arise in C-K, but of course with subtle differences. Also, with the C-K, Black has to be prepared for other structures from White (Advance, Exchange, Fantasy, Panov ...) The Scandinavian is more "user-friendly" in that regard, which can be attractive to players who don't want to spend much time studying theory.

Mostly though, in the mainline Scandinavian, White still having his knight on c3, blocking his own c2 pawn, changes the dynamic from the mainline C-K, where White's knight is better placed on e4, and he's free to choose how to develop his c-pawn without any obstruction from his own piece.

This is one of the simpler ideas that comes to mind when players say, "Nc3 wins a tempo on Black's Qd5! Hah! Now White wins!" But the knight move comes with its own drawbacks - preventing White from establishing his desirable c4+d4 pawn bulwark.

In many lines, White ends up moving the c3 knight again, which Black could argue validates his early queen development, in which he "enticed" White to misplace his knight, over the shiny lure of winning a tempo.

Tempo, also, was something I felt the Scandinavian helped me learn a bit more about, as a younger player. Mainly, I felt that I learned a bit more about how tempi often don't matter as much as some players seem to think they do. Black might shuttle his queen to d5, a5, then to c7 or b6 (for example), and White might declare that all maneuvering proves that White is better ... yet Black so often still manages to draw or win - because even while the whole tempi debate rages on, positional decisions and tactical opportunities are always present and ever-changing ... and the stronger player will usually handle either of these better, to come out on top when the dust settles.

In the end, a won or lost position is a won or lost position - and whatever tempi were used to reach it are now, essentially, irrelevant ...

My skepticism of the Scandi isn't really based on some abstract theorizing about tempo, but just a number critical positions I've seen that I don't think look very good for black. Which sort of validates the abstract theorizing, but regardless... here is just one example but there are multiple-

It's an interesting position because, while the engine hates it for black, you can argue whites kingside is overextended, neither player is likely to play these so sharply, good players can win with anything... but you could also argue blacks king will be vulnerable on the queenside, and the center is blocked to where blacks queen isn't going to harass the kingside anytime soon, whites pieces will be developed on the kingside and protect the white king... if the center does open up blacks king on the queenside will become further exposed.. We can do more abstract theorizing... instead of doing this I like to just look at the results - black is not scoring well in this line. When the engine hates something AND black is getting bad results... it generally doesn't inspire confidence in me.

When I say the engine hates it I don't just mean there's one critical line good for white but he has to play super-sharp to maintain the edge... it looks like the position generally seems to favor white.

Now, if black has some critical response / line I haven't seen where he's scoring well... I could change my opinion, but I'm not aware of any such position. The critical positions I've seen end up looking like this, where the engine both hates it for black and white is getting great results.

If your approach to the game is to try out a bunch of different openings and learn all sorts of things from them... it's a fine approach, at that point I can't really argue that you shouldn't play the Scandi, or anything else for that matter. Actually, you can probably learn alot from playing terrible positions - you could play the bongcloud and get great at defending your king. Every position will probably teach you something.

But if I had to recommend one opening to someone who really just wants a simple core repertoire it wouldn't be the Scandi. It's just not inspiring. Yes that is an opinion ... I suppose the OP can read your statement then mine and go with one.

Though I do think the abstract theorizing does have some general relevance, it's just not really my style to go by that, but maybe it should be moreso.

You sort of made my point when you said the Caro-Kann can lead to a wider variety of pawn structures. That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

The position you showed is definitely interesting, though not perhaps too difficult if Black is familiar with it. I don't view it as terrible - looks more or less equal, to me, for the pros and cons that you mentioned for each side.

There are some thematic moves in here for Black ... Bd6, g6, Rf8 or gxh5, 0-0-0 ... common plans that Black will get familiar with if he studies this enough, (like any theory).

And like any defense, either player could go wrong along the way with a misstep or blunder ...

Though ...g6 seems to be an important move here. If White allows it, Black can play ...gxh5 and open some activity along the g-file, eyeing White's king.

But if White pushes his h-pawn to h6, by contrast, then White loses that square for his dark bishop, which means Black can plop his rook safely on f8 then castle queenside, and so on.

This strikes me as one of those many positions where there are dangers lurking, but if Black plays accurately, he should hold just fine. Which is how I view the Scandinavian in general. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, and that's understandable. But I haven't yet been convinced that it's losing ...

I don't think it's losing... I'm sure there are good moves black can play to keep the game going for a long time, probably out to a draw... that's true in alot of openings. I'd just say that the scales are slightly more tipped against black than they usually are in other openings. Playing tricky positions like that, where there are certain moves which keep the game interesting but you need to know them - it does require deep understanding... it takes quite alot of effort to develop that understanding for all the different branches and things white can do. For me to make that investment - like if I'm looking to settle on one opening - it is much more inspiring knowing that the position is objectively good, or at least that people are scoring well with it. Otherwise the whole time there is this nagging voice in the back of your head saying "why are you even doing this when you could be doing something else?", sapping your motivation... then years pass and inevitably the voice wins out and you move on to some other defense (why did you abandon the defense?), and all those years worth of effort... weren't entirely wasted but could have been spent better.

I like the idea of having fun and experimenting I just also would like a core repertoire to develop mastery in, and I don't think I could ever choose the Scandi for that purpose.

@Post #19

Keep in mind, Their are 3 different Scandy lines.

The 3 different lines are based on the Queen movement on move 3.

- 3…Qa5

- 3…Qd8

- 3…Qd6

The line you showed in post #17 is supposed to be the line which was “refuting” the Qd8 Scandy. I use term refuting loosely because a strong player a while back found new move to help Qd8 Scandy line. The move found was the move a6, but I think Scandy still struggles.

I think the line goes like below:

They use to play c6. The discovery move is a6 I believe. I don’t know if it is helping them, but it is interesting. Keep in mind, Even if the line is considered bad/refuted, it doesn’t mean Scandy is refuted because the Scandy has multiple variations with in it so obviously we have to use term refuted very loosely due to the fact it’s not really true. It’s true, but not true.

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The line which is supposed to be “refuting” the Qa5 line which is line your looking at is the Nf3 line. The Nf3 line is the one which has driven a lot of Scandy players to quit Scandy or it is line which has caused a lot of Scandy players to play Qd8 or Qd6 variations.

The exact move order escapes me because I stopped playing it due to another line I enjoy.

The set up is supposed to look like above for White.

I think Theoretically the best try Black has against it was to castle Queen side.

They have to play it like Chigorin and pressure d4, but the win rate for white in those lines still have been off charts. I haven’t checked the stats in few years so maybe Black does slightly better now. The new nature of the line can sometimes screwer the stats.

When Black castled Kingside and played normal, they got completely butchered.

I don’t play the Scandy ever so I don’t know what the best way to respond to this is.

I’m just saying when I played the line with White pieces I use to crush all Scandy players who tried to castle King side and play it normal. The only Scandy players who seem to put up a fight were the ones doing a Queenside/Chirgorn approach. It would be pawn storms against each other racing to checkmate.

However, It seemed to me like white attack was still happening faster vs. Black attack so I still got the better end of that deal, but they sure did make me worry a little more.

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The line which features the Qd6 Scandy is very normal sort of.

I don’t think the Qd6 Scandy was ever considered to be best Scandy out of the 3 Scandy lines. It’s very been bad, but it’s never been considered good either.

I would argue it has been underrated. Strong Chess players have played it. It doesn’t get the credit it deserves. The Qa5 or Qd8 are hands down the most played and most popular.

The Qd6 is sort of left behind.

I don’t think their is a white side line which is crushing it per say.

It probably has highest draw rate of the 3 lines because it’s like average. It’s not really doing anything crazy to white and white can’t really do anything crazy to it.

‘But no one likes to play it so it doesn’t even matter!

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The line I like to play to completely ruin the Scandy players is totally hilarious!

So it starts off normal - Than I play g3 because the center light square pawns which normally attack and occupy the center get traded. This means the Center Light squares are weaker so a Bishop on g2 is very good piece.

They often develop their Knight. Than when I play Bg2.

They try to blunt my bishop a little bit with c6.

This is when the magic happens - White is supposed to play Nf3 to prevent e5, but it can cause Black to be a little annoying with Bg4 pin.

So I like to play Nge2 and they are supposed to capitalize with e5 move, but they never do it.

Instead, they developed their Bishop to pin anyway or to f5.

Thats when I hit them with AWESOME MOVE!

B4 out of no where!

White win rate in practice is completely insane!

Its actually pretty funny. The look on their little faces is so shocking when they have never seen it before.

YOU CANT DO THAT!

Oh, yes I can!

Whatcha going to do about it?

Once, I found this line I stopped playing the other lines.

The other lines are so strong most Scandy players have to devote huge portion of their time learning the inside and outside of the other main lines to the point that they often over look or run out of time to study some of these other deadly sidelines.

So they get completely wrecked!

Even if they know how to play against my above line, They still struggle because the line I am playing is still very solid with very clear and well defined plans. It’s not easy for them to figure out what to do against my line.

I have only lost to engine using players playing this line with white pieces.

I have had draws against strong players with this line.

Majority of players will lose due to not knowing what to do or they will lose due to running out of time. It’s just 1 of those tough practical lines which is why the OP shouldn’t get involved with Scandy.

The OP can have success in other lines with out backing himself into such a corner.

Their isn’t a lot of wiggle room with the Scandy.