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Has 3.Bc4 in the King's Gambit Accepted really been refuted?

  • #21

    curiously the only argument defending a somewhat weakened pawn structure has been that the op can not exploit the arising weakness, just saying

  • #22

    albeit I must say the other patzer is more appropriate at times

  • #23

    11. Ng3 (-0.29) or 11. Qd2 (-0.35).

     

    Stockfish 8 doesn't think it's a refutation. But sure, playing with White's pawn structure would be annoying and difficult for a human.

  • #24

    Capablanca was not a fan of the King's Gambit for white but he recommended Bc4 as best for white.  Bc4 is a perfectly good move.

  • #25
    melvinbluestone wrote:

       I was curious about Kasparov's surprising choice of the KG in his blitz game with Karjakin in St. Louis. And his 3.Nc3 was just plain weird. I think GM Rensch was being diplomatic when he called it "a rare line", instead of just a plain and simple "inferior line". But he managed a draw with it, so maybe, as Danny said, not a bad choice for a fast time control.

    OMG! Kasparov played the Mason Gambit! What a hero! Smile

  • #26

     The real hero is Baskaran Adhiban: Bledow Countergambit

     

     

  • #27
    pfren wrote:

    Suffice to say that Shaw's "refutation" of 3.Bc4 has been "refuted"...

    White is not worse in Shaw's line. Here's some information about it:

    http://200opengames.blogspot.gr/2017/02/012-bust-to-bishops-gambit.html

    That's my blog. Thanks for the link Smile.

    Yes, in my opinion White faces more serious challenges in the Bishop's Gambit than 3...Nc6. But then White faces challenges in virtually all lines of the King's Gambit. It's an opening you have to want to play, in full knowledge that White has no theoretical advantage at all and may often come out standing worse, but.... in the kind of random position you like to play, which usually counts for more than a theoretical advantage over the board anyway.

  • #28
    Laskerator wrote:

    Thanks for the link, IM pfren!

     

    melvinbluestone: there's also the Cunningham where 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 Be7 4. Nc3 begs for Black to play 4. ...Bh4+. This used to be my most common way of meeting the Cunningham (and was also a recommendation of Shaw's) back when I regularly employed the KG. It was one of the funnest variations to play in the KG-jungle, IME.

          I know a guy who gave up the KG specifically because of the Cunningham. Even when he won against more common stuff, like 3...g5 or 3...d6, he was disheartened, saying "So what? Black could have played 3...Be7, and I woulda' lost".wink.png

       I used to try 4.Qe2 against the Cunningham. Now, I'm not recommending it or anything, but the point is that if black follows through with the check on h4, then after 5.Nxh4 Qxh4+ 6.Qf2 Qxf2 7.Kxf2, white may actually be better. But 4...d5 seems to give black a pretty good advantage.

        On the Bryan countergambit: Most gambitiers want their opponent to take the material they offer, But I was wondering what would happen if black prepared the b5 pawn push with c6. Curiously, only the 365chess DB had the move 4...b5!?. There are 5 games: one draw and 4 wins for black. But the wins were all by 2000+ players against unrated, so you can,t tell much from that. Anyway, it fares well when you stick it an engine. I tried a bunch of blitz game with it, and it was pretty interesting. Here's one I got lucky in:

     

  • #29
    melvinbluestone έγραψε:
    Laskerator wrote:

    Thanks for the link, IM pfren!

     

    melvinbluestone: there's also the Cunningham where 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 Be7 4. Nc3 begs for Black to play 4. ...Bh4+. This used to be my most common way of meeting the Cunningham (and was also a recommendation of Shaw's) back when I regularly employed the KG. It was one of the funnest variations to play in the KG-jungle, IME.

          I know a guy who gave up the KG specifically because of the Cunningham. Even when he won against more common stuff, like 3...g5 or 3...d6, he was disheartened, saying "So what? Black could have played 3...Be7, and I woulda' lost".

       I used to try 4.Qe2 against the Cunningham. Now, I'm not recommending it or anything, but the point is that if black follows through with the check on h4, then after 5.Nxh4 Qxh4+ 6.Qf2 Qxf2 7.Kxf2, white may actually be better. But 4...d5 seems to give black a pretty good advantage.

        On the Bryan countergambit: Most gambitiers want their opponent to take the material they offer, But I was wondering what would happen if black prepared the b5 pawn push with c6. Curiously, only the 365chess DB had the move 4...b5!?. There are 5 games: one draw and 4 wins for black. But the wins were all by 2000+ players against unrated, so you can,t tell much from that. Anyway, it fares well when you stick it an engine. I tried a bunch of blitz game with it, and it was pretty interesting. Here's one I got lucky in:

     

    Actually this 3...c6 and 4...b5 line is advocated and analysed by FM Martin Lokander in his recent book on the open games. He labels 8.dxc6 as dubious because of 8...Qh4+ 9.Kf1 Ne7 10.Nf3 Qf6 where he (rightly) claims a clear advantage for Black.

  • #30

         Serves me right for not keeping up with my reading! Perhaps white does best not to invite the b-pawn's advance with 4.Nc3, but simply play 4.d4. Then after 4...d5 5.exd5 cxd5 6.Bb5+ Nc6 7.Bxf4. However, if you're playing the KG, I don't think this is the kind of position you're gonna' be too crazy about. After7...Bd6, I don't see any problems for black.

             So what's the story: In the KGA, after 3.Bc4, black plays 3...c6 and wins?wink.png

  • #31
    melvinbluestone wrote:

             So what's the story: In the KGA, after 3.Bc4, black plays 3...c6 and wins?

     

    LMAO grin.png

  • #32

        Kasparov's 3.Nc3 is also known as the Mason-Keres Gambit. Contrary to popular belief, it is not James Mason the British actor the name refers to, but Charles Mason, who, along with Jeremiah Dixon, surveyed the demarcation line that today generally denotes the separation of "north" and "south" in the eastern United States.

        I still think the move is a lemon...... Here, white tries to finagle a perpetual by shuttling back and forth between a8 and a4 starting on move 20. But it fails, ultimately. Observe:

         Another rarely seen move after 3.Bc4 is 3...Nc6!? This seems to be another idea that fares well statistically in the DBs, but probably has no special merit in itself. It's just mixed in there in a bunch of games by transposition. However, I had some pretty good results with it in quick games:

     

  • #33
    melvinbluestone wrote:

        Kasparov's 3.Nc3 is also known as the Mason-Keres Gambit. Contrary to popular belief, it is not James Mason the British actor the name refers to, but Charles Mason, who, along with Jeremiah Dixon, surveyed the demarcation line that today generally denotes the separation of "north" and "south" in the eastern United States.

    No, it is named after James Mason, the Irish chess master of the 19th century, rather than the English actor. Though the only game in the databases where Mason actually played 3 Nc3 was a loss to Rosenthal, Paris 1878. Keres had far more success with it in his 1930s postal games.

  • #34

    lol

  • #35
    jatait47 wrote:
    melvinbluestone wrote:

        Kasparov's 3.Nc3 is also known as the Mason-Keres Gambit. Contrary to popular belief, it is not James Mason the British actor the name refers to, but Charles Mason, who, along with Jeremiah Dixon, surveyed the demarcation line that today generally denotes the separation of "north" and "south" in the eastern United States.

    No, it is named after James Mason, the Irish chess master of the 19th century, rather than the English actor. Though the only game in the databases where Mason actually played 3 Nc3 was a loss to Rosenthal, Paris 1878. Keres had far more success with it in his 1930s postal games.

        Thanks for the info. I guess I didn't make it clear enough that I was joking. Either that, or, more likely, it just wasn't funny. Yes, of course the move has nothing to do with the actor or the Mason-Dixon Line. The chess master James Mason (1849 - 1905) was indeed one of the top players of his day. He played the KG frequently early on in his career, but seems to have stayed away from it after 1880.

          The Rosenthal game is quite interesting. But more often he seems to have played the 3.Bc4 line. Here he faces a strange move, 3...f5, attributed to the 16th century player Gianutio. I think it was actually quite popular in the 19th century, but today it's considered kind of inferior. Mason clobbers the always entertaining Henry Bird in this game......

        Getting a bit off topic here, this Gianutio pawn push can also be tried against the 3.Nf3 line of the KGA. In fact, I think today it's still considered a sound alternative to the more common moves, like g5, d5 or d6. Anyway, I play it occasionally, and it often catches opponents off guard. Of course, it's basically just another wing gambit, where black tries to get in d5 at the cost of a pawn. But it can be tricky.....

     

  • #36
    melvinbluestone wrote:

        Thanks for the info. I guess I didn't make it clear enough that I was joking. Either that, or, more likely, it just wasn't funny. Yes, of course the move has nothing to do with the actor or the Mason-Dixon Line. The chess master James Mason (1849 - 1905) was indeed one of the top players of his day. He played the KG frequently early on in his career, but seems to have stayed away from it after 1880.

          The Rosenthal game is quite interesting. But more often he seems to have played the 3.Bc4 line. Here he faces a strange move, 3...f5, attributed to the 16th century player Gianutio. I think it was actually quite popular in the 19th century, but today it's considered kind of inferior. Mason cobbers the always entertaining Henry Bird in this game......

    ah, it was a joke, okay Smile

    PS re Mason-Bird: 7...c6 is better than 7...d6

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