Help me master the Stonewall please!

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Avatar of ThrillerFan
RussBell wrote:
MangoMankey wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
congrandolor wrote:

@TrillerFan: «the Stonewall Attack is garbage». Can you show a forced win for black in the SA? Can't you? Then you comment is garbage.

I said Garbage, not Refuted!

Anything that gives White a slightly worse position is garbage.  White goes first!  Black should be suffering the "slightly worse position".

Learn English!  Look up "Garbage" and look up "Refuted".  They are not synonymous!

 

Not to mention, you are a 1500 weasel.  I have an OTB rating of well over 2000.  Hmmm...which player might actually know what they are talking about?

Your contribution to topic is negative:

- you have made it harder for @manifest_glory, a beginner, to learn from what was a reasonably phrased question

- you are talking down other members because their ratings are too low .....and talking down people because of their rating is the last thing that should be done on this forum.

I concur.

While ThrillerFan is a good and generally knowledgeable chess player, he unfortunately has a tendency to venture into arrogance and ad hominem attacks when someone dares to disagree with him.

 

Disagree is the wrong choice of words.  There is a major difference between disagreeing, and being outright wrong in an arrogant and snide manner.  You can also be wrong in an asking type of tone.  All 3 will get different responses.

 

Disagreeing:  I hate the Grunfeld, but am well aware that it's a fully sound defense, and if you "disagree" and think it's a great opening, that's a matter of taste, and I respect Grunfeld fans.  You will simply never get me to play the Black side of it!

 

Questioning:  I explain something, and a player, often lower rated, does not understand the "why" behind something.  I mention, for example, that 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 that the move 5...Bd7 is now dubious and that other moves that directly go for the attack on d4, like 5...Qb6, 5...Nh6, or 5...Nge7, is stronger.  The person does not understand why, and they ask for an explanation why 5...Bd7 is inferior.  I respond with an explanation, or if I already fully explained it in another thread, I might put the link to the thread and tell them to read comment number X (where X is a number).

 

Snide BS:  See Post #12 in this thread.  That's the BS that will get you an ear full from me!  So contrary to your statements that I'm always arrogant, try reading some of the posts in threads that are not full of BS responses, like in the Openings area, there's one about Opening crossroads in the subject line.  My first post is on page 2, I believe post 26.  You'll notice that nobody is a jerk, and you don't see me speaking down to said posters.  There was another where a player was having problems with the Sicilian, and I gave my answer, and there was a follow-up question, which I gladly answered, and he saw where I was coming from.  That doesn't mean you have to agree with the reasoning.  He may decide to play the Moscow Sicilian.  That's up to him.

Avatar of kindaspongey
llamonade2 wrote:

@ThrillerFan has a reputation of being antagonistic, but his posts have content and he's not an idiot.

Don't take what he says personally and you'll have useful pieces to add to the puzzle.

(as much as he has a disdain for coddling people, I think he'd improve his posts by recognizing there's a middle ground worth aiming at, somewhere in there)

It seemed to me to be desirable for there to be some sort of warning about a Stonewall repertoire. I was reluctant to make such a statement myself, so I am glad that someone spoke up about it. On the other hand, I think it would be desirable to consider how the situation of an ~800 player differs from that of an ~2100 player.

Avatar of RussBell
ThrillerFan wrote:
RussBell wrote:
MangoMankey wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
congrandolor wrote:

@TrillerFan: «the Stonewall Attack is garbage». Can you show a forced win for black in the SA? Can't you? Then you comment is garbage.

I said Garbage, not Refuted!

Anything that gives White a slightly worse position is garbage.  White goes first!  Black should be suffering the "slightly worse position".

Learn English!  Look up "Garbage" and look up "Refuted".  They are not synonymous!

 

Not to mention, you are a 1500 weasel.  I have an OTB rating of well over 2000.  Hmmm...which player might actually know what they are talking about?

Your contribution to topic is negative:

- you have made it harder for @manifest_glory, a beginner, to learn from what was a reasonably phrased question

- you are talking down other members because their ratings are too low .....and talking down people because of their rating is the last thing that should be done on this forum.

I concur.

While ThrillerFan is a good and generally knowledgeable chess player, he unfortunately has a tendency to venture into arrogance and ad hominem attacks when someone dares to disagree with him.

 

Disagree is the wrong choice of words.  There is a major difference between disagreeing, and being outright wrong in an arrogant and snide manner.  You can also be wrong in an asking type of tone.  All 3 will get different responses.

 

Disagreeing:  I hate the Grunfeld, but am well aware that it's a fully sound defense, and if you "disagree" and think it's a great opening, that's a matter of taste, and I respect Grunfeld fans.  You will simply never get me to play the Black side of it!

 

Questioning:  I explain something, and a player, often lower rated, does not understand the "why" behind something.  I mention, for example, that 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 that the move 5...Bd7 is now dubious and that other moves that directly go for the attack on d4, like 5...Qb6, 5...Nh6, or 5...Nge7, is stronger.  The person does not understand why, and they ask for an explanation why 5...Bd7 is inferior.  I respond with an explanation, or if I already fully explained it in another thread, I might put the link to the thread and tell them to read comment number X (where X is a number).

 

Snide BS:  See Post #12 in this thread.  That's the BS that will get you an ear full from me!  So contrary to your statements that I'm always arrogant, try reading some of the posts in threads that are not full of BS responses, like in the Openings area, there's one about Opening crossroads in the subject line.  My first post is on page 2, I believe post 26.  You'll notice that nobody is a jerk, and you don't see me speaking down to said posters.  There was another where a player was having problems with the Sicilian, and I gave my answer, and there was a follow-up question, which I gladly answered, and he saw where I was coming from.  That doesn't mean you have to agree with the reasoning.  He may decide to play the Moscow Sicilian.  That's up to him.

I didn't say you were ALWAYS arrogant.

You apparently have specific criteria for when to venture into arrogance and ad hominem attacks.

Avatar of RussBell
kindaspongey wrote:
llamonade2 wrote:

@ThrillerFan has a reputation of being antagonistic, but his posts have content and he's not an idiot.

Don't take what he says personally and you'll have useful pieces to add to the puzzle.

(as much as he has a disdain for coddling people, I think he'd improve his posts by recognizing there's a middle ground worth aiming at, somewhere in there)

It seemed to me to be desirable for there to be some sort of warning about a Stonewall repertoire. I was reluctant to make such a statement myself, so I am glad that someone spoke up about it. On the other hand, I think it would be desirable to consider how the situation of an ~800 player differs from that of an ~2100 player.

In case you haven't looked at my blog post....

The Stonewall Attack...

https://www.chess.com/blog/RussBell/stonewall-attack

In the first two paragraphs I provide a caveat relating to its reputation and effectiveness versus the level of the chess player....

Here are those paragraphs....

"The Stonewall Attack is a Queen's pawn (1.d4), opening for White, one which, if the relatively straightforward attacking themes are learned, can be lethal to the opponent who is not proficient in defending against it, especially against those who don't yet have 'Master' in their title. 

While it is true that the opening is not currently in fashion, and isn't generally seen at the highest levels (as those who do have 'Master' in their title are more capable of finding ways to defend against it), nevertheless the Stonewall is certainly playable by the improving amateur, and at club level against similar competition, as most opponents at these levels are unlikely to be very familiar with how to best defend against it."

 

Avatar of manifest_glory
MangoMankey wrote:

To answer your questions:

1. your move order is correct and the most common way of achieving the Stonewall for white.

2. An early Bf5 is generally bad in queen's pawn openings because the weakness of b7 is quickly felt:

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1876517 is the game referenced above which again exploits the bad positioning of the bishop on f5 with 5. Qf3!

3. you can just take the pawn on e5 for free: You don't get a Stonewall but you get basically a free pawn so you should take it

 

I'm sorry that you don't get a stonewall in (2) and (3) but those moves basically stop the Stonewall (but give white better options!). Let me know if you have any questions. I'd recommend getting a beginners book first if possible (@kindaspongey is the best at recommending books). For a guide to Stonewall, @RussBell's blog post above is great with several resources.

P.S.

manifest_glory wrote:

lol yeah I know I suck.

 

thanks

@kindaspongey was not trying to insult you: just pointing out that @ThrillerFan's comment (which may or may not be correct) is largely irrelevant since the Stonewall is (extremely) playable at your level (and upto even like 2000 I'd argue).

Thank you for all your help!

 

However, for the third diagram, I meant to say this:

 
and if I capture, it looks like black is in a better position.
 

If I don't capture, he will push to e4

 

Avatar of manifest_glory
kindaspongey wrote:
llamonade2 wrote:

@ThrillerFan has a reputation of being antagonistic, but his posts have content and he's not an idiot.

Don't take what he says personally and you'll have useful pieces to add to the puzzle.

(as much as he has a disdain for coddling people, I think he'd improve his posts by recognizing there's a middle ground worth aiming at, somewhere in there)

It seemed to me to be desirable for there to be some sort of warning about a Stonewall repertoire. I was reluctant to make such a statement myself, so I am glad that someone spoke up about it. On the other hand, I think it would be desirable to consider how the situation of an ~800 player differs from that of an ~2100 player.

And yeah I've researched the SA a bit before and am fully aware that the SA is pretty bad once you get good.  However, I'm not good and am preparing to use this opening at a school tournament in a couple weeks.

Avatar of llamonade2
manifest_glory wrote:
MangoMankey wrote:

To answer your questions:

1. your move order is correct and the most common way of achieving the Stonewall for white.

2. An early Bf5 is generally bad in queen's pawn openings because the weakness of b7 is quickly felt:

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1876517 is the game referenced above which again exploits the bad positioning of the bishop on f5 with 5. Qf3!

3. you can just take the pawn on e5 for free: You don't get a Stonewall but you get basically a free pawn so you should take it

 

I'm sorry that you don't get a stonewall in (2) and (3) but those moves basically stop the Stonewall (but give white better options!). Let me know if you have any questions. I'd recommend getting a beginners book first if possible (@kindaspongey is the best at recommending books). For a guide to Stonewall, @RussBell's blog post above is great with several resources.

P.S.

manifest_glory wrote:

lol yeah I know I suck.

 

thanks

@kindaspongey was not trying to insult you: just pointing out that @ThrillerFan's comment (which may or may not be correct) is largely irrelevant since the Stonewall is (extremely) playable at your level (and upto even like 2000 I'd argue).

Thank you for all your help!

 

However, for the third diagram, I meant to say this:

 
and if I capture, it looks like black is in a better position.
 

If I don't capture, he will push to e4

 

Stonewall is a pawn structure more than anything, it's not a move order.

When black threatens to play e5 with a move like Nc6 in your diagram, then play f4 to stop him. That way you'll be able to get a stonewall.

Early Bd3 has the problem that Nc6 has dual threats of e5 and Nb4. So just to help you remember I'd suggest not playing Bd3 so early. Play something like d4, e3, f4 Nf3 c3

It doesn't mean you can 100% ignore your opponent, for example if black plays c5, then don't mindlessly play Nf3, play c3 to maintain the stonewall pawn structure, than afterwards play Nf3.

 

Avatar of RussBell
manifest_glory wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
llamonade2 wrote:

@ThrillerFan has a reputation of being antagonistic, but his posts have content and he's not an idiot.

Don't take what he says personally and you'll have useful pieces to add to the puzzle.

(as much as he has a disdain for coddling people, I think he'd improve his posts by recognizing there's a middle ground worth aiming at, somewhere in there)

It seemed to me to be desirable for there to be some sort of warning about a Stonewall repertoire. I was reluctant to make such a statement myself, so I am glad that someone spoke up about it. On the other hand, I think it would be desirable to consider how the situation of an ~800 player differs from that of an ~2100 player.

And yeah I've researched the SA a bit before and am fully aware that the SA is pretty bad once you get good.  However, I'm not good and am preparing to use this opening at a school tournament in a couple weeks.

@manifest_glory -

As @llamonade2 implied, you can seriously take up the question of whether the SA is good or bad for you once you begin consistently playing against opposition at the 2000+ level.  Until then your success is primarily dependent on how good a chess player you are relative to your opponent, as well as how well you know the opening versus how well your opponent knows how to defend against it - at a school or club competition, most players are not typically familiar with the opening, so your (hopefully) superior skill with it will be an advantage.  

In terms of the opening, focus mainly on getting a feel for its typical themes and plans, i.e., don't put much (if any) effort into trying to memorize lines.  I do recommend to download the pdf copy of Soltis' book from Scribd.com (you can use the free trial to download a copy), which I reference in my blog article, and spend time focusing on the first 30 or so pages, particularly the Introduction....

https://www.scribd.com/document/362669250/Andrew-Soltis-The-Stonewall-Attack-Chess-Digest-1993-pdf-pdf

Avatar of llamonade2

So just to be clear...

 

Avatar of manifest_glory

Thanks llamonade2 and I just played a really short 13 move game.  I'm not sure how to post a game onto here so ill do it out.  It would be great if you guys told me if I handled it correctly

 

 

Avatar of llamonade2
manifest_glory wrote:

Thanks llamonade2 and I just played a really short 13 move game.  I'm not sure how to post a game onto here so ill do it out.  It would be great if you guys told me if I handled it correctly

 

 

You didn't get to play a stonewall that game, but that's ok, because the reason you couldn't play it is black threw away material with an early e5.

When you're new to chess you can improve your opening play by trying to avoid starting a sequence of captures. You can recapture, but do your best not to capture (unless it wins material).

So lets look at the game with that in mind. Every time white has an opportunity to capture ask two questions:

1) If I capture can I win material?
2) Do I have to capture to avoid losing material?

If the answer is no then just develop (pawn moves don't count as development, by develop I mean move knights and bishops off your back rank and castle).



Avatar of llamonade2

So anyway, you won in 13 moves, good job.

Focusing on development is tough at first, but after it becomes a habit it will make you an even better player happy.png

Avatar of manifest_glory

Okay thanks a lot!!!

Avatar of RussBell
llamonade2 wrote:
manifest_glory wrote:

Thanks llamonade2 and I just played a really short 13 move game.  I'm not sure how to post a game onto here so ill do it out.  It would be great if you guys told me if I handled it correctly

 

 

You didn't get to play a stonewall that game, but that's ok, because the reason you couldn't play it is black threw away material with an early e5.

When you're new to chess you can improve your opening play by trying to avoid starting a sequence of captures. You can recapture, but do your best not to capture (unless it wins material).

So lets look at the game with that in mind. Every time white has an opportunity to capture ask two questions:

1) If I capture can I win material?
2) Do I have to capture to avoid losing material?

If the answer is no then just develop (pawn moves don't count as development, by develop I mean move knights and bishops off your back rank and castle).



This was an extremely good lesson for a beginner by @llamonade2

Avatar of LogoCzar

For what it's worth, IM Yaacov Norowitz thinks that the Stonewall attack is an excellent opening for club players (U1800) and is especially useful for improving at chess in general.

Avatar of kindaspongey
RussBell wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
llamonade2 wrote:

@ThrillerFan has a reputation of being antagonistic, but his posts have content and he's not an idiot.

Don't take what he says personally and you'll have useful pieces to add to the puzzle.

(as much as he has a disdain for coddling people, I think he'd improve his posts by recognizing there's a middle ground worth aiming at, somewhere in there)

It seemed to me to be desirable for there to be some sort of warning about a Stonewall repertoire. I was reluctant to make such a statement myself, so I am glad that someone spoke up about it. On the other hand, I think it would be desirable to consider how the situation of an ~800 player differs from that of an ~2100 player.

In case you haven't looked at my blog post.... ...

You are quoting a comment that was not intended to discuss your blog post. I was trying to contribute to the discussion of ThrillerFan.

Avatar of RussBell
kindaspongey wrote:
RussBell wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
llamonade2 wrote:

@ThrillerFan has a reputation of being antagonistic, but his posts have content and he's not an idiot.

Don't take what he says personally and you'll have useful pieces to add to the puzzle.

(as much as he has a disdain for coddling people, I think he'd improve his posts by recognizing there's a middle ground worth aiming at, somewhere in there)

It seemed to me to be desirable for there to be some sort of warning about a Stonewall repertoire. I was reluctant to make such a statement myself, so I am glad that someone spoke up about it. On the other hand, I think it would be desirable to consider how the situation of an ~800 player differs from that of an ~2100 player.

In case you haven't looked at my blog post.... ...

You are quoting a comment that was not intended to discuss your blog post. I was trying to contribute to the discussion of ThrillerFan.

I was addressing the highlighted statement...

Avatar of kindaspongey
manifest_glory wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
llamonade2 wrote:

@ThrillerFan has a reputation of being antagonistic, but his posts have content and he's not an idiot.

Don't take what he says personally and you'll have useful pieces to add to the puzzle.

(as much as he has a disdain for coddling people, I think he'd improve his posts by recognizing there's a middle ground worth aiming at, somewhere in there)

It seemed to me to be desirable for there to be some sort of warning about a Stonewall repertoire. I was reluctant to make such a statement myself, so I am glad that someone spoke up about it. On the other hand, I think it would be desirable to consider how the situation of an ~800 player differs from that of an ~2100 player.

And yeah I've researched the SA a bit before and am fully aware that the SA is pretty bad once you get good.  However, I'm not good and am preparing to use this opening at a school tournament in a couple weeks.

Again, my comment was intended to be a contribution to the discussion of ThrillerFan.

Avatar of kindaspongey
RussBell wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
RussBell wrote:
kindaspongey wrote:
llamonade2 wrote:

@ThrillerFan has a reputation of being antagonistic, but his posts have content and he's not an idiot.

Don't take what he says personally and you'll have useful pieces to add to the puzzle.

(as much as he has a disdain for coddling people, I think he'd improve his posts by recognizing there's a middle ground worth aiming at, somewhere in there)

It seemed to me to be desirable for there to be some sort of warning about a Stonewall repertoire. I was reluctant to make such a statement myself, so I am glad that someone spoke up about it. On the other hand, I think it would be desirable to consider how the situation of an ~800 player differs from that of an ~2100 player.

In case you haven't looked at my blog post.... ...

You are quoting a comment that was not intended to discuss your blog post. I was trying to contribute to the discussion of ThrillerFan.

I was addressing the highlighted statement...

What I had in mind was that it seemed to me to be desirable for there to be some sort of warning (appearing in this thread) about a Stonewall repertoire.

Avatar of RussBell
LogoCzar wrote:

For what it's worth, IM Yaacov Norowitz thinks that the Stonewall attack is an excellent opening for club players (U1800) and is especially useful for improving at chess in general.

Yes.  I provide links to his lecture and games on the Stonewall Attack in my blog article on the topic...

The Stonewall Attack...

https://www.chess.com/blog/RussBell/stonewall-attack