Help with London System after 1.d4 c5

Farm_Hand

As black you can't make white play into an English. People play 1.Nf3 and go for a Reti or Catalan for example.

But sure, 1...Nf6 is a good move to play against 1.Nf3.

cchheessss1237

This is true (though the Reti and Catalan specifically can't be reached if black plays c5). However, I do think this move order does reduce the amount of lines you have to face. For example, after 1.Nf3 d5, white can still play a KIA and black is likely to play the move c5 at some point anyway, while he can instead opt for 2.c4. This is still more options than after 1.Nf3 Nf6, when 2.c4 c5 is definitely an English and 2.d4 just leads to black's normal repertoire, whether 2...d5, 2...e6 or 2...g6 - with both options the KIA is still possible so it can't be used to argue one way or another

pfren
Impractical έγραψε:

You could force them into a Sicilian.
 

 

First, entering a Sicilian structure where Black is not behind in development right from the third move can't be such a good idea.

Second- why you insist on that silly ...Qb6 Black sortie when you are threatening nothing at all? (f2 can be naturally protected by Qe2).

Farm_Hand
cchheessss1237 wrote:

This is true (though the Reti and Catalan specifically can't be reached if black plays c5). However, I do think this move order does reduce the amount of lines you have to face. For example, after 1.Nf3 d5, white can still play a KIA and black is likely to play the move c5 at some point anyway, while he can instead opt for 2.c4. This is still more options than after 1.Nf3 Nf6, when 2.c4 c5 is definitely an English and 2.d4 just leads to black's normal repertoire, whether 1...d5, 1...e6 or 1...g6 - with both options the KIA is still possible so it can't be used to argue one way or another

Oh, I see what you're saying. I started with 1.d4 d5 as black, and I've never really looked at symmetrical English lines, but for other players the reverse may be true tongue.png

TwoMove

Hi OP

Regarding the exchange slav, the example game of Lakdawala you gave wasn't that opening. Also black doesn't typicallly play Qb6 in that opening, i.e after 1.d5 2c4 c6 3pxp pxp 4Nc3 Nf6 5Nf3 Nc6 6Bf4 depending on black's rep 6...Bf5, 6...a6 or even 6 ...e6. If Qb6 is played at all, it is much later. 

DeirdreSkye

After 1.d4 c5 the best is of course 2.d5 and you must forget  London system at this point. Even if you play Bf4 it's not London system anymore.

cchheessss1237

 Because he doesn't live in Europe perhaps?

poucin

So u want to play London system against anything?

Sorry it is chess, not london system game.

U have to adapt to your opponent's moves.

Musikamole
poucin wrote:

So u want to play London system against anything?

Sorry it is chess, not london system game.

U have to adapt to your opponent's moves.

True.

GM Simon Williams does teach to remain flexible. He does teach 1.d4 c5 2.d5, which will certainly not get one the pyramid pawn structure found in the London (e3, d4, c3). Against the KID, Williams and others recommend not playing c3, but playing Nc3, looking to play e2-e4. 

———-

It’s funny, but the more I study the London, the more I find exceptions to the common setup for White. It seems to have evolved into an opening, and not just a system. Move order has become more defined, more variations Popping up. What defines the London, the best I can understand, is 1.d4 and 2.Bf4, or Bf4 on move 3, just getting that bishop outside the pawn chain, whenever it makes sense to do so. 

Regarding move order, it used to be 1.d4 2.Nf3 3.Bf4, but now the newest books all say to play 2.Bf4, and to delay Nf3 until after Black plays ...e6, which then blocks Bc8, avoiding a pin on Nf3. Magnus Carlsen really delays Nf3, playing Nd2 first, and waiting to see what his opponent will do.

———-

Again, I was very happy playing 1.d4 2.c4 until I saw Magnus playing The London, and then watching YouTuber IM Eric Rosen play it live on Twitch. He just finished a video series on The London.

———-

My bright idea is to learn The London to combat the KID, which is a favorite at my club. Taking them out of their pet lines is my hope, and the London I’m talking about against the KID does not look like a London pawn structure, or any 1.d4 main line against the KID.  

DeirdreSkye
Musikamole wrote:

It’s funny, but the more I study the London, the more I find exceptions to the common setup for White. It seems to have evolved into an opening, and not just a system. Move order has become more defined, more variations Popping up. What defines the London, the best I can understand, is 1.d4 and 2.Bf4, or Bf4 on move 3, just getting that bishop outside the pawn chain, whenever it makes sense to do so. 

Regarding move order, it used to be 1.d4 2.Nf3 3.Bf4, but now the newest books all say to play 2.Bf4, and to delay Nf3 until after Black plays ...e6, which then blocks Bc8, avoiding a pin on Nf3. Magnus Carlsen really delays Nf3, playing Nd2 first, and waiting to see what his opponent will do.

———-

Again, I was very happy playing 1.d4 2.c4 until I saw Magnus playing The London, and then watching YouTuber IM Eric Rosen play it live on Twitch. He just finished a video series on The London.

       It was always an opening. It was never a system. 

Musikamole
Farm_Hand wrote:
Musikamole wrote:

 

I really need a repertoire for Black against The English - 1.c4. It’s the only opening this one 1600 player at my club plays. 

Probably one of the most straightforward ways is like this.

You'll play some normal looking development moves and an early d5.

 

 

 

Thanks for help with The English. Great explanation! 

Farm_Hand

There are lots of options, and you may like something else better. I'm happy if you found it useful though happy.png

Optimissed

After 1. d4 ...c5 2. d5, you aren't playing a London. You're probably in some kind of King's Indian or Benoni, which is just what black wants. You probably wouldn't know what to do after 2. d5 anyway, against someone who plays the Benoni expertly. Seriously, if you want to play the London, play 2. c3. Thought that would be obvious, except for the people who think that the London is always 1. d4 and 2. Bf4. That's ridiculous, actually. The London is a formation, not a move order.

Farm_Hand
Optimissed wrote:

After 1. d4 ...c5 2. d5, you aren't playing a London. You're probably in some kind of King's Indian or Benoni, which is just what black wants. You probably wouldn't know what to do after 2. d5 anyway, against someone who plays the Benoni expertly. Seriously, if you want to play the London, play 2. c3. Thought that would be obvious, except for the people who think that the London is always 1. d4 and 2. Bf4. That's ridiculous, actually. The London is a formation, not a move order.

Black wants a Benoni?

No no no.

Well, maybe.

But not as much as I want to face a Benoni as white tongue.png

It's just a bad opening. No reason for white not to do the tiny amount of study necessary to make black suffer... it doesn't mean it's an automatic win of course, but black will surely suffer more than some tame 2.c3 stuff.

 

Plus, IMO, trying to play the same thing vs absolutely everything gets boring really fast. The other extreme is playing mainlines for everything. I think the right balance is somewhere in the middle.

Optimissed

<<<I could be stubborn and play the line at the beginning of the post. The computer says the position is about equal. GM Simon Williams says to play 2.d5 after 1.d4 c5. That stops White from losing a pawn, but there is no London Bf4 if Black plays 2...e5, and now White is stuck playing some mainline in The Benoni. Yuck>>>

Don't you mean wonderful? 1. d4 ....c5 2. d5 ....e5 is fine for white. Black has a really passive game unless you allow him to attack with pawns on the k-side against the castled king. Otherwise black can't do much. I suppose I'd play e4 and then moves like Bd3 and Ne2. I might play c4 or I might not. Force f4 and try to play f5. If you get it right, black gets tangled up in knots. You have all the piece communication and your d5 cuts black in half. That's why the Modern Benoni is e6, countering white's centre.

Optimissed

The Modern Benoni isn't a bad opening at all but it is a really difficult opening to play against well-prepared players. It demands a high order of tactical and positional skill, Didn't Bronstein play it?

pfren

Oh dear... Here it goes again: After 1.d4 c5 2.d5 it is ***NOT*** a Benoni with the pawn at c2.

A poor relative may appear (called by some Schmidt-Benoni) where Black does not have the usual queenside play, as he has no pawn majority there- plus that ...e6 is difficult to achieve. Usually he wants to swap his c8 bishop for the f3 knight to reduce his space issues, but to achieve that cooperation is needed.

IndreRe

Everybody should listen to pfren more happy.png

 

1. d4, c5 is an Old Benoni and then 2. d5 is obvious (even though sometimes in bullet I've played c3 since I don't mind the Exchange Slav there as much - Boor ATTACK!!!). As pfren says, this is a different line since White hasn't played c4 and can use the c4-square for his knight or bishop.

 

 

Farm_Hand

I don't play 1.d4

And as black I certainly don't play 1.d4 c5.

I honestly thought 1.d4 c5 was called the benoni tongue.png

DeirdreSkye
Farm_Hand wrote:

I don't play 1.d4

And as black I certainly don't play 1.d4 c5.

I honestly thought 1.d4 c5 was called the benoni

It is actually called Old Benoni and if White doesn't play c4(and he has no reason to) it is called  Schmid Benoni(the usual move order of Schmid Benoni is 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5). Without c4 it has have very few similarities with Modern Benoni. The positions are more modern defense or Pirc than Benoni positions.