How do I make progress with the french defense?
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RandomBean wrote:
Maybe trying to use a non-refuted opening would be a good start?
Really? Is this about the time that the crazy ones come out?
ChessOath wrote:
RandomBean wrote:
Maybe trying to use a non-refuted opening would be a good start?
Really? Is this about the time that the crazy ones come out?
No I think RandomBean is right. The french defense is...refuted. Check this line which confirms.
Obviously this is the winning line against the French Defense. Every other black try after Nf3 has run into hot water already. The winawer, the Mccutcheon, and those stupid openings after c5 were refuted before they were legit.
Oooh. I see it now. Yup. The French is indeed busted.
Duh is right! I just can't believe we thought it was sound all this time!
pfren wrote:
CP6033 wrote:
Rumo75 wrote:
A student of mine played 4...Nc6 in the same position recently. Just horrible. I had to give him a 2-hour lecture on logic in chess.
Your post is confusing. 4. Nc6 in the game that was played is the theoretical line-do you mean a move other than move 4, or do you mean Nc6 before c5 (which is fine in some lines but bad in others)?
4...cxd4 is of course the rational follow-up, when white either has to accept that he made a fingerslip by omitting c2-c3, or play in gambit style 5.Bd3, which used to be a Nimzowitz speciality.
White certainly has fair compensation after 5.Bd3, but on the other hand Black's play is easier than in the regular advance variation.
Saying that "4...Nc6 is the theoretical line" proves Rumo's point about logic in chess: Pressuring the d4 pawn is illogical if you can take it straight away and break white's pawn chain!
I just double-checked the position and it makes sense-white has not play c2-c3. I didn't pay attention to that, and definitely agree that 4. cxd4 is the best move. Nc6 is obviously playable but it is the equivalent of admitting that this move order is not an error, which it seems to be. My bad.
@Jengalais
All joking aside, I am not a fan of the way white played that.
This is a line I would go into quite a lot if I played against the French. White uses a devastating attack to construct a winning endgame and artfully slays the black fortress with a zugzuang display.
I highly doubt the French defense is a bad opening. The opening is amazing if you know how to play it's just hard to know how to play it. Anyway, if you find a better continuation that avoids the mess in my game for black, please tell me, I really want to know.
Erm...I just showed you why it's a problem? If you can't be bothered to dispute me then by default I'm right. I also know a thing or two about the French Defense and chess in general.
EDIT: And no one in your stupid link played Nd4, which is a critical move. You can't just ignore a critical move because people are playing dumb patzer moves like Bxc5 or b4....
jengaias wrote:
LotsofSnuff227 wrote:
Erm...I just showed you why it's a problem? If you can't be bothered to dispute me then by default I'm right. I also know a thing or two about the French Defense and chess in general.
EDIT: And no one in your stupid link played Nd4, which is a critical move. You can't just ignore a critical move because people are playing dumb patzer moves like Bxc5 or b4....
dumb patzer moves?
You probably noticed that 8 out of 9 players with white were over 2400.
5 of them over 2500.
None of these patzers choose 9.Nd4
Maybe because the move is not really a problem.In the line you give you play some very convenient moves for Black that help white a lot.
Your 12...f5 forced move is a total nonsense!
After 12...Rb8 white has no good way to defend b2 pawn and if 13.0-0-0 then 13...Qb6 and Black is anything but worst.
You must watch your tongue boy.
Any other brilliant lines you'd like to give me?
Seriously, I don't even know who you are but you're probably a tool.
Maybe you should actually get good at chess before you start trying to tell people their lines are "garbage". Maybe you actually don't know what you are talking about? What a thought! I just CRUSHED your line and you're probably going to tell me some of my moves were "inferior". Well I'll tell you something, if there's anything "inferior" here it's you. Black is in deep trouble in the line you gave and its because you don't. understand. chess.
It doesn't matter you stupid prick!
White's attack is faster, there's no way for black to break through!
See what I mean? I swear I've made no inconvenient moves, I've just looked at all the lines and can't find a single one that wins for black.
I even played out your idea with Qa3+ and a5. Yes, it works a little better than the other ones, but the simple Kd2 short circuits the line that would lead to mate, and blacks ends up losing there too.
May 20, 2016
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#34
I think the french defense has angered more players from the white side, then 1. ...c5.
May 21, 2016
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#35
LazyChessPlayer3201 wrote:
I think the french defense has angered more players from the white side, then 1. ...c5.
In my experience, they are angered because they have been too lazy to learn how to play against it. Thus, their anger is not merited.
Blacks goal in the French defense is to counter the center later on in the game with c5 perhaps. Also he is trying to push his queenside pawns and obtain space in the queenside, whilst trying to defend his kingside. White usually does the opposite. He is trying to keep his centre structure intact and attack in the kingside. French defense is very double edged. On the one side black often gets a huge advantage in the queenside but he sometimes gets crushed in the kingside due to lack of defenders. You have to examine games especially in the French defense is order to see defensive resources that black has against white big attack against your king. On the other hand, examining games will help you understand the pawn structure and the piece placement that you are aiming for in the French e.g. b5 and Nb6 is a common one in the French
May 21, 2016
0
#37
jengaias wrote:
repac3161 wrote:
LazyChessPlayer3201 wrote:
I think the french defense has angered more players from the white side, then 1. ...c5.
In my experience, they are angered because they have been too lazy to learn how to play against it. Thus, their anger is not merited.
It is difficult for the average player to have to right attitude vs the French defense.
Not suprisingly , French defense is refuted by patzers around 1-2 times a month.Most expect an advantage or at least a comfortable game against it and that never happens.
The other problem is that French defense is a very forgiving opening.Innacurate or passive moves won't give more than a slight edge.
Take for example Tarrasch(3.Nd2).How many choices Black has against it?
If he wants a closed game 3...Nf6 , if he wants an open game 3...c5.These are black's most reasonable choices.What surprises though is that although White has a significant spatial advantage Black can afford to play a waiting move on move 3(3...Be7).How many openings give Black the chance to play a waiting move on move 3?
And that's not all.Black can also play 3...a6 ,3...Nc6 , 3...dxe4 or even the outrageous 3...h6 and still be ok.
The worst is the many different positions that these moves create and white must be able to handle all of them.
So to play against French defense , you must be first able to see beyond it's desceptively passive and harmless looks.
jengaias, I am not sure what you consider an average player is. My OTB rating is 1550, which is below the average of a club/tournament player in the UK. However, my blitz rating at chess.com (1480) is noticeably higher than the median.
In my experience, plenty of people of my rating like to play the Advance. However, they often have a patchy knowledge of opening theory. Thus, I frequently profit from it as I do not believe the Advance is that forgiving for weak/passive moves and the advantage that I get is often more than a small edge.
This failure of White to play correctly against the frequently seen Advance is quite common around my level. It is one of the main reasons I play the French, and it is probably also the main reason that a number of other French defence players play the defence.
As far as playing waiting moves against the Tarrasch goes, the move 3Nd2 has obviously allowed this because the Knight has to be moved again. However, in the c5 and Nf6 variations if fits in with White's plan. Thus,is not considered a wasted move and so the opening still enjoys some popularity. Personally, I play the Tarrasch against the French as do a number of stronger players than me. I believe the positions in both the c5 and Nf6 variations would actually appeal to e4 players more than a number of the other possible options for White. However, in most cases White has been too lazy to find this out and would rather play a bad version of the Advance (or the Exchange) and then get angry playing against the French.
The French is, without a doubt, a wonderful opening. White must go into grave complications to get an edge. Against the French, there is but one path, and it is by no means easy to walk. It begins with Nc3, though, to play against the French you must learn the poisoned pawn winawer, the mccutcheon and the alekhine-chatard or you will get nothing.
An example of what happens when a good French goes horribly, horribly wrong.
Notice I didn't castle this whole game. Sometimes, this is what it takes to win in the French. It is often safer, and better to be in in the center than on either flank.
After 8.Bh6 black plays 8...Qb2