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How do you attack in general with the KID (and defend)

krazeechess

I just seem lost when I play it, even after so many games. I can't seem to attack the kingside for lines other than the main one where white goes ne1 then f3. Then, when I play it with white, (the only line which I know how to play is the ne1 and f3), I get completely bombarded on the kingside. AND THAT'S THE MOST POPULAR LINE. Even when I go over the games which I lose, my opponents keep playing new lines.

1aardvark

Me too !!! Don’t ask me for advice 😃

leonquinplayz

Well, sorry to say this, KID is literally uncrackable. 

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Garry Kasparov plays it so much. Maybe instead you should try to learn it

krazeechess
leonquinplayz wrote:

Well, sorry to say this, KID is literally uncrackable. 

 

Garry Kasparov plays it so much. Maybe instead you should try to learn it

I do play it. I can't seem to attack with it though. Since you say it is unbreakable, do you have any tips?

B1ZMARK

The kings Indian defense usually aims to square up on the dark squares with outposts on c5/D4/f4. Attacking these squares can be achieved by moves such as e5/c5/Nh5-f4/Nd7-c5/Nfd7-e5, etc.

krazeechess
B1ZMARK wrote:

The kings Indian defense usually aims to square up on the dark squares with outposts on c5/D4/f4. Attacking these squares can be achieved by moves such as e5/c5/Nh5-f4/Nd7-c5/Nfd7-e5, etc.

I see. What would you do against the four pawns attack? That defense for white seems unbreakable. It's pretty overwhelming too, when they play f5.

ThrillerFan
krazeechess wrote:

I just seem lost when I play it, even after so many games. I can't seem to attack the kingside for lines other than the main one where white goes ne1 then f3. Then, when I play it with white, (the only line which I know how to play is the ne1 and f3), I get completely bombarded on the kingside. AND THAT'S THE MOST POPULAR LINE. Even when I go over the games which I lose, my opponents keep playing new lines.

 

You have just hit the nail on the head about a major problem I see with amateurs playing thus opening.  The Mar Del Plata with 9.Ne1 makes sense to them because the idea is obvious and you can get a sacrificial attack (I.e. ...Bxh3).

 

The problem is that they do not understand why the idea is possible, and try to mimic it in other lines.  In those lines, they often get killed because they do not understand what they are doing.

 

One already mentioned the main idea for Black.  With e4, d4, and c4 played, White has a big center.  But note that when you see 3 pawns lined up like that, the square the middle one is on is weak, in this case d4.  Why?  Because with c4 AND e4 pushed, you will no longer be able to cover d4 with a pawn (White that is).

 

So Black's main goal is to attack d4 and force White to advance it or trade it off.  With c4, d4, and e4, White controls b5, c5, d5, e5, and f5.  If you can force him to say, advance d5, the entire structure is weakened.  Rather than controlling 5 squares on the 5th rank, White no longer controls a single dark square with that structure.  Therefore, Black wants to get in either c5 or e5, but which one?

 

That depends on what White plays.  Some of them, ...e5 is outright bad.

 

Examples:

Averbakh - 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 O-O 6.Bg5 e5?? 7.dxe5! dxe5 8.Qxd8 Rxd8 9.Nd5 and Black is losing material.

6.Bg5 Saemisch - Same problem here as the Averbakh.  Trade, trade Queen's, and Knight goes to d5, winning material.  The pinned Knight and hanging c7 pawn are both a problem.

 

Four Pawns Attack - 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f4 O-O 6.Nf3 and here White controls e5, and hence the main line is 6...c5, looking to break up White's center.

 

Notice that in all of these lines, the center is not blocked.  In the Classical, 6...e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5, The center is blocked.  The a2-g8 diagonal that your king is on is closed up.  This is the ONLY reason that ...f5 ideas work.  Also, the White King has committed itself to the Kingside, making it a fixed target.

 

Let's compare this to the Gligoric.

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.Be3.  Here, 7...Nc6? 8.d5 Ne7 intending 9...Nd7 and 10...f5 is completely the wrong idea.  Where is the White King?  It is on e1.  It can still go queenside.  What does all of this king pawn advancing do?  Weakens your king, not his, in this case!

 

In the Petrosian System, which is the Classical with 7.d5.  After 7...a5 8.Bg5, the whole point is not to let Black expand on the kingside.  But c5 is weakened.  The last move, ...a5, is to control b4 and secure c5 as an outpost for a Black Knight.  Black's play can very well be on the queenside here.  If White ever plays a3, the b3-square can be weak, and can be a route to d4 for the Knight - Nc5-b3-d4.

 

Mar Del Plata with 9.Nd2 - here, going for a kingside storm is too slow.  There is a big difference between a white Knight on d3 and on c4.  From c4, White attacks the d6 weakness directly.  From d3, the Knight has no influence on d6.  So after 6...e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Nd2, Black should play 9...c5 (looking to block the center completely and get rid of White's c5 idea, or else 9...a5, gaining queenside space and slowing down b4, which helps promote c5 for White.

 

So moves like ...f5 with a kingside attack are not automatic.  First off, most important, the a2-g8 diagonal and the d-file must both be blocked.  Like the Classical variation with 7...Nc6 8.d5.  If White can still play dxe5, then ...f5 is usually a mistake.

 

Black's play is not always on the kingside.  In some lines, where tension is kept and d5 is not played yet, the move ...exd4 can sometimes be good, where the Bishop on g7, often a bad piece, becomes a good piece on an open diagonal, and a Maroczy Bind structure occurs.  This can often lead to a queenside attack for Black.

 

If your reasoning behind playing the King's Indian Defense is because you just assume that Black's ideas are consistent and the same against all lines, you are sadly mistaken and have no business playing the KID.  The idea you mention works for one line - the Mar Del Plata with 9.Ne1.

 

The key thing about the KID is d4 and the dark squares, not the pawn storm.

 

Now before you go asking for pretty diagrams, if you are serious enough, you will get out a board and pieces or pull up a board on your computer and go thru the moves yourself.  Physically making the moves yourself repeatedly rather than clicking an arrow is critical in learning.  So if you are serious enough to be worth spending the time to assist, you would have no objection to this approach and would not need diagrams.  It is not like I am giving 5 sidelines at move 24 where having a diagram to reset the position after White's 24th move would be necessary.

 

Good luck with the King's Indian Defense.

krazeechess
ThrillerFan wrote:
krazeechess wrote:

I just seem lost when I play it, even after so many games. I can't seem to attack the kingside for lines other than the main one where white goes ne1 then f3. Then, when I play it with white, (the only line which I know how to play is the ne1 and f3), I get completely bombarded on the kingside. AND THAT'S THE MOST POPULAR LINE. Even when I go over the games which I lose, my opponents keep playing new lines.

 

 

Now before you go asking for pretty diagrams, if you are serious enough, you will get out a board and pieces or pull up a board on your computer and go thru the moves yourself.  Physically making the moves yourself repeatedly rather than clicking an arrow is critical in learning.  So if you are serious enough to be worth spending the time to assist, you would have no objection to this approach and would not need diagrams.  It is not like I am giving 5 sidelines at move 24 where having a diagram to reset the position after White's 24th move would be necessary.

 

Good luck with the King's Indian Defense.

Yes, I will go over this after I finish class. Currently I'm in the middle of class. Your response definitely won't go wasted!

krazeechess

Alright I went through all the variations. However, I'm still not clear on the variations where I have to play c5, like the Averbakh. I can't find good squares for my pieces. Does someone have any general moves specifically for those variations?

B1ZMARK

Na6-Nc7-a6-Rb8-b5, Ng4-Ne5

najdorf96

indeed. Everything written above (especially Thriller's advice) is on point, but my take is that it is not in the lines, variations, positions you're having the most problem with... it's your mindset. If attack is all you think about when playing black & you undoubtedly believe that the King's Indian Defense is your avatar, you will be stuck with any black opening you play. Defense isn't about attacking but about equality. "Attacking" pre-maturely without equalizing first leads to disaster between two equal opponents. As it is, once you change your philosophy you will be able to see the ideas n confirm or not whether an attack is justified. Otherwise "attack" other strategies in your favor n have a draw-in-hand at least.

pfren
ThrillerFan έγραψε:

Four Pawns Attack - 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f4 O-O 6.Nf3 and here White controls e5, and hence the main line is 6...c5, looking to break up White's center.

 

 

What is wrong with 6...e5?

As far as I'm concerned, nothing, actually it is a fine move. The only disadvantage is that in a couple of lines the position simplifies a lot, and it's difficult to play for the win with either color.

The only line that can probably set some problems for Black is 7.fxe5 dxe5 8.d5, but Black is scoring very well after 8...Na6.

BestSell

I particularly like the Semi-Classical setup for White, against the KID. It transposes easily to a lot of other openings, and avoids the more common classical mainlines that KID players are well versed in.

Example:

It's also a valid approach, as many Super GMs play it as White (Fabiano, Nakamura, Ding, Giri, So, Topalov, etc ...).

From the Black side, though, I can't offer any advice, other than to say that it sounds like you might benefit from getting a book or two dedicated to playing the KID.

"Starting Out: the King's Indian Defense" would be a good place to start.

krazeechess
BestSell wrote:

I particularly like the Semi-Classical setup for White, against the KID. It transposes easily to a lot of other openings, and avoids the more common classical mainlines that KID players are well versed in.

Example:

It's also a valid approach, as many Super GMs play it as White (Fabiano, Nakamura, Ding, Giri, So, Topalov, etc ...).

From the Black side, though, I can't offer any advice, other than to say that it sounds like you might benefit from getting a book or two dedicated to playing the KID.

"Starting Out: the King's Indian Defense" would be a good place to start.

Yeah I think your right, I should get a book.

krazeechess
pfren wrote:
ThrillerFan έγραψε:

Four Pawns Attack - 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f4 O-O 6.Nf3 and here White controls e5, and hence the main line is 6...c5, looking to break up White's center.

 

 

What is wrong with 6...e5?

As far as I'm concerned, nothing, actually it is a fine move. The only disadvantage is that in a couple of lines the position simplifies a lot, and it's difficult to play for the win with either color.

The only line that can probably set some problems for Black is 7.fxe5 dxe5 8.d5, but Black is scoring very well after 8...Na6.

I see your point but I would rather not go into a draw right from the beginning and try to avoid queen trades.

pfren
krazeechess έγραψε:
pfren wrote:
ThrillerFan έγραψε:

Four Pawns Attack - 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f4 O-O 6.Nf3 and here White controls e5, and hence the main line is 6...c5, looking to break up White's center.

 

 

What is wrong with 6...e5?

As far as I'm concerned, nothing, actually it is a fine move. The only disadvantage is that in a couple of lines the position simplifies a lot, and it's difficult to play for the win with either color.

The only line that can probably set some problems for Black is 7.fxe5 dxe5 8.d5, but Black is scoring very well after 8...Na6.

I see your point but I would rather not go into a draw right from the beginning and try to avoid queen trades.

Well, if you don't like the Benoni after 6...c5 7.d5 e6 etc there is also another good move, namely 6...Na6 - but this is almost invariably followed by ....e5. Sometimes it transposes to 6....e5 lines.

And needless to say, a Queenless middlegame is far from being "a draw".

B1ZMARK

Actually I just stumbled upon this book today but it looks pretty promising: “The Kings indian according to Tigran petrosian”, featuring games by petrosian from white and blacks sides