well i'm at about 1600 now and i've never ever seen that variation played. Fact is until you get to a higher level moves like that just aren't played.
How popular is this variation?
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pfren wrote:
Black is comfortably equal, maybe even more than that.
More to the point is 7.Re1, when white has a little something following the gambit line 7...0-0 8.e5 Ne8 9.c3!?, but Black can do better by 7...b5 8.Bb3 d6 9.Bd5 Nxd5 10.ed5 Ne5 11.Nxd4 0-0, when he has zero problems. This variation was popular some 30-40 years ago (Short being one of the main practitioners as White) but now it's deservedly out of fashion. I have played this many times myself with great results, but it's no shame to admit that white has nothing.
Why is it out of fashion?
I just saw a great game where Bronstein used it with no trouble.
I only had the time to read through move 3, but I feel like ...a6 is a mistake. Can't be very popular.
The 2500 is going to lose to the 2700 no matter what they play. Hardly proves anything.
Re: 3...a6, after 4.Bxc6!, black's structure is ruined and he's wasted a tempo. According to my database, this variation wins around 70% for white.
pfren wrote:
Yereslov wrote:
Why is it out of fashion?
I just saw a great game where Bronstein used it with no trouble.
@ BrettGoodrich: Yes, it's obvious that 3...a6 is a bad mistake, and very unpopular (my database has only 147,654 games with it).
I'm glad that you have spotted that.
Well, the guy is a 2500.
Ivanchuk plays guys like Carlsen and Anand with little trouble.
A 2500+ is child's play to him on a good day.
BrettGoodrich wrote:
The 2500 is going to lose to the 2700 no matter what they play. Hardly proves anything.
Re: 3...a6, after 4.Bxc6!, black's structure is ruined and he's wasted a tempo. According to my database, this variation wins around 70% for white.
I haven't look to any databases, but I think after 4...dxc6 5.d4 exd4 6.Qxd4 Qxd4 7.Nxd4 it's the most possible drawn game on the earth ;)
You should buy one. Seriously. You just enter moves, and it gives you a roadmap to victory. Assured.
Did you know that in my country "Greek" is a synonym for anal sex? True story.
MSC157 wrote:
BrettGoodrich wrote:
The 2500 is going to lose to the 2700 no matter what they play. Hardly proves anything.
Re: 3...a6, after 4.Bxc6!, black's structure is ruined and he's wasted a tempo. According to my database, this variation wins around 70% for white.
I haven't look to any databases, but I think after 4...dxc6 5.d4 exd4 6.Qxd4 Qxd4 7.Nxd4 it's the most possible drawn game on the earth ;)
Maybe through perfect play.
There is a famous game by Bobby Fischer where everyone thought the game was drawn, until he unleashed some brilliant tactic to win the game.
I think pfren is trying to demonstrate how a strong player handles this sideline, giving black a comfortable position without any problems.
Also Brett, I'm fairly sure that 3. ...a6 is playable for black :D. Although white can take with 4. Bxc6, black has many lines which give white close to nothing.
zkman wrote:
I think pfren is trying to demonstrate how a strong player handles this sideline, giving black a comfortable position without any problems.
Also Brett, I'm fairly sure that 3. ...a6 is playable for black :D. Although white can take with 4. Bxc6, black has many lines which give white close to nothing.
Yes, but this is against weak competition.
A 2500 FIDE rated opponent is nothing to Ivanchuk.
He was rated number two in the world at one time.
If he played this against an opponent like Kramnik, I would be more convinced.
@Yereslov. I don't think this is the point. The result of the game is irrelevant to the opening discussion. Black doesn't have to win to prove he came out OK from the opening :D. A strong player like Ivanchuk who has a vast opening repertoire shows us that there is nothing to fear in this line and obtains a comfortable position. Him outplaying his opening later on shows his higher class but isn't too important to the result of the opening.
Yereslov wrote:
MSC157 wrote:
BrettGoodrich wrote:
The 2500 is going to lose to the 2700 no matter what they play. Hardly proves anything.
Re: 3...a6, after 4.Bxc6!, black's structure is ruined and he's wasted a tempo. According to my database, this variation wins around 70% for white.
I haven't look to any databases, but I think after 4...dxc6 5.d4 exd4 6.Qxd4 Qxd4 7.Nxd4 it's the most possible drawn game on the earth ;)
Maybe through perfect play.
There is a famous game by Bobby Fischer where everyone thought the game was drawn, until he unleashed some brilliant tactic to win the game.
Search for Lasker vs. Capablanca, St. Petersburg, 1914, I don't know which tournament
MSC157 wrote:
Yereslov wrote:
MSC157 wrote:
BrettGoodrich wrote:
The 2500 is going to lose to the 2700 no matter what they play. Hardly proves anything.
Re: 3...a6, after 4.Bxc6!, black's structure is ruined and he's wasted a tempo. According to my database, this variation wins around 70% for white.
I haven't look to any databases, but I think after 4...dxc6 5.d4 exd4 6.Qxd4 Qxd4 7.Nxd4 it's the most possible drawn game on the earth ;)
Maybe through perfect play.
There is a famous game by Bobby Fischer where everyone thought the game was drawn, until he unleashed some brilliant tactic to win the game.
Search for Lasker vs. Capablanca, St. Petersburg, 1914, I don't know which tournament
I have already seen it.
zkman wrote:
@Yereslov. I don't think this is the point. The result of the game is irrelevant to the opening discussion. Black doesn't have to win to prove he came out OK from the opening :D. A strong player like Ivanchuk who has a vast opening repertoire shows us that there is nothing to fear in this line and obtains a comfortable position. Him outplaying his opening later on shows his higher class but isn't too important to the result of the opening.
It was the opening. It seemed like black played like crap from move 8-9.
Yereslov wrote:
MSC157 wrote:
Yereslov wrote:
MSC157 wrote:
BrettGoodrich wrote:
The 2500 is going to lose to the 2700 no matter what they play. Hardly proves anything.
Re: 3...a6, after 4.Bxc6!, black's structure is ruined and he's wasted a tempo. According to my database, this variation wins around 70% for white.
I haven't look to any databases, but I think after 4...dxc6 5.d4 exd4 6.Qxd4 Qxd4 7.Nxd4 it's the most possible drawn game on the earth ;)
Maybe through perfect play.
There is a famous game by Bobby Fischer where everyone thought the game was drawn, until he unleashed some brilliant tactic to win the game.
Search for Lasker vs. Capablanca, St. Petersburg, 1914, I don't know which tournament
I have already seen it.
OK 1-0
MSC157 wrote:
Yereslov wrote:
MSC157 wrote:
Yereslov wrote:
MSC157 wrote:
BrettGoodrich wrote:
The 2500 is going to lose to the 2700 no matter what they play. Hardly proves anything.
Re: 3...a6, after 4.Bxc6!, black's structure is ruined and he's wasted a tempo. According to my database, this variation wins around 70% for white.
I haven't look to any databases, but I think after 4...dxc6 5.d4 exd4 6.Qxd4 Qxd4 7.Nxd4 it's the most possible drawn game on the earth ;)
Maybe through perfect play.
There is a famous game by Bobby Fischer where everyone thought the game was drawn, until he unleashed some brilliant tactic to win the game.
Search for Lasker vs. Capablanca, St. Petersburg, 1914, I don't know which tournament
I have already seen it.
OK 1-0
I seriously doubt Capablanca would have beat Lasker for his title in 1914.
Lasker was in his prime during this time and thrashed every opponent he met.
By the 1920's he was mentally gone and physically weak from old age. If you look at his career, it's one of the most impressive in chess.
He was dominating from 1890-1915.
pfren wrote:
BrettGoodrich wrote:
Did you know that in my country "Greek" is a synonym for anal sex? True story.
My impression was that in your country you have no synonyms, as you can barely spell. Apologies.
And yes, Michele Godena is a weak player, who has no luck against strong opposition. How true.
Now, go on with your stupidity exchibition. It's no fun, but we cannot do anything to cure that.
Wow, he defeated Polgar on a bad day. How impressive!
The same can be said for hundreds of other amateurs.
Polgar did not play like a 2700 FIDE player here.
Just because he won a blunder-filled game from a superior player means nothing.
Edit: I just checked this guys games.
He has trouble against 2200-2300 FIDE rated players.
Don't make him out to be a genius for finding his single best game.
Estragon wrote:
Yereslov wrote:
I seriously doubt Capablanca would have beat Lasker for his title in 1914.
Lasker was in his prime during this time and thrashed every opponent he met.
By the 1920's he was mentally gone and physically weak from old age. If you look at his career, it's one of the most impressive in chess.
He was dominating from 1890-1915.
Actually, Lasker only played chess when he needed money. Very few players could raise the money for a match, and he had an academic career as well as a number of business ventures with his brother.
Capablanca was new on the international scene, having first made a name in Europe at San Sebastion 1911. There was some talk of a match, but some political troubles in Europe prevented it.
After the Capa match, Lasker was certainly NOT "mentally gone and physically weak from old age." In this period, he won the NY 1924 tournament, one of the strongest of all time, finished 2nd at Moscow 1925, wrote the classic Lasker's Manual of Chess and translated it into two languages, wrote a play which was produced on the German stage, fled to Moscow from Hitler's pogroms, and even finished an undefeated third at the strong Moscow 1935 tournament at the age of 65!
You should be that "mentally gone and physically weak" on the best day you ever had.
It doesn't change the fact that he was weaker.
A 1914 Lasker-Capablanca match would be a great deal more impressive.
Chess Explore Gives black 17.5-39.8% chance of winning.