How to counter Sicilian Alapin variation as Black
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IMKeto
Feb 22, 2019
0
#21
" Try playing some 2000 players to get a taste of it."
I've played Experts in OTB tournaments many times. I've won a few, drawn a few, but far more often, I've lost. I have a real respect for their level of play and the work it took to attain it. BUT, Experts are also the guys that Carlsen and Nakamura slaughter in simuls; They serve as first-round snacks for the strong masters and IMs. So I can respect their play without any feelings of awe.
Oddly enough, you almost never here the super GMs saying things like "the Alapin is a joke." That kind of silly bloviating is reserved for lesser players
2...Nf6, 2...e6, 2...d5 are all good.
The choice depends on what type of position you want to achieve as Black.
Feb 22, 2019
0
#24
AlphaZeroDark30 wrote:
IMBacon wrote:
Those "super-GMs" are lunchmeat for the engines that are rated several hundred points higher, so even their ideas have limitations.
The problem with that is this. We dont play chess engines, we play people.
AlphaZeroDark30 wrote:
Those "super-GMs" are lunchmeat for the engines that are rated several hundred points higher, so even their ideas have limitations.
Its about even as far as that goes. Even NN engines dont perform well in overall openings. Its best for a human working with engines to assess openings.
Thats all I have to say for this thread where a 953 rated online player in blitz is asking about move 2 in the sicilian. Oh....the sicilian is not so intuitive for a 953 rated player? Hmm....probably the OP has only read 10,000 times that Sicilian is not recommended for 953 rating? My sympathies are only with the noobs playing c3 as white(as recommended) and are learning to move up. Its no joke. Eventually they will be a faster transition to open silician....or some stay with c3 as it becomes like a system to them.
Feb 22, 2019
0
#26
AlphaZeroDark30 wrote:
IMBacon wrote:
AlphaZeroDark30 wrote:
IMBacon wrote:
Those "super-GMs" are lunchmeat for the engines that are rated several hundred points higher, so even their ideas have limitations.
The problem with that is this. We dont play chess engines, we play people.
Humans have the ability to reverse-engineer the nearly-perfect moves played by the computer. This was previously not a chess skill, but now it is. One needs to be able to learn directly by example, without the guidance of much weaker human players. To that extent, chess is now a video game.
Well...we will agree to disagree on that.
solskytz wrote:
<Laskernephew>
World Champion Lasker had a really amazing nephew named Edward, who produced not only brilliancies on the chessboard, but also entertaining essays and analyses.
Not so about you. With a rating of 1500, one doesn't need a title either to crush you game after game after game without letting you breathe, or to be able to point out the innumerable holes in your knowledge and understanding.
At 1500, you don't even begin to understand what is the actual playing strength that really grants a title to somebody - you can't begin to appreciate how fantastically higher it is than what you are capable of.
<ThrillerFan>, on the other hand, WAS 1500 once upon a time, so knows very well how far he progressed since then - AND has beaten numerous titled players in various ways. Not a titled player - but that's hardly a requirement when pointing out the flaws in the reasoning of someone rated 1500.
Remain a patzer for the rest of your life - or become humble and realize that you can maybe learn something by listening to players who play better than you do.
a 1500 guy can ocasionally beat a 2000 on blitz, even in slower games, at least in my experience
I don't know what caused solskytz to erupt in that idiotic. spit-spraying rage, but who cares? If believing that Edward Lasker was Emanuel's nephew is an example of his awesome chess knowledge,, why pay attention.
"Remain a patzer for the rest of your life - or become humble and realize that you can maybe learn something by listening to players who play better than you do."
I would agree that there's plenty to learn from stronger players. But "The Alapin is a joke!," is not one of those things. In fact, it's just a foolish thing to say. Why waste spit and bile defending it?
IMBacon wrote:
AlphaZeroDark30 wrote:
IMBacon wrote:
Those "super-GMs" are lunchmeat for the engines that are rated several hundred points higher, so even their ideas have limitations.
The problem with that is this. We dont play chess engines, we play people.
Because we are cowards
Calling alapin variation a joke is a joke in itself. Tiviakov, Sveshnikov, Adams, Zighalko, Pavasovic and many many other strong grandmasters have had it as their standard repertoire against c5 and they have had amazing results playing it, even against the very best players in the world. It is amazing looking at their games and all the top players they beat in the c3 sicilian.
Feb 22, 2019
0
#32
Laskersnephew wrote:
Such a lot of rage from a self-ordained expert! None of which addresses the obvious point that your statement that the Alapin "is a joke" is nothing but pompous hot air. Let's see: Nakamura, Ivanchuk, Mamedyarov, Grischuk, Shirov, Polgar, Krammnik, Adams, Karpov, and Vachier-Lagrave have all played the Alapin. But ThrillerFan says it's a joke. Who to trust? It's a dilemma, isn't it?
And while you gloat about all of their wins, you fail to mention all of the times that Black has annihilated White!
In fact, let's take a database with a LARGE SAMPLE SIZE! www.365chess.com.
1.e4 c5 2.c3, and I mentioned that the best line is 2...Nf6. If we look at 2...Nf6, 31.6% are White wins, 33.8% are Draws, and 34.6% are Black wins.
That's a 48.5% score for White after 1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6. The normal average is a 54% score for White. So if you want to surrender 5 1/2 percent from your score, go ahead and play the Alapin Sicilian!
It's a perfectly good variation. Not the most challenging, but a good choice for the club player who doesn't have a lot of study time. Given the number of truly great players who have given it a shot, I think the pontificating of a near-expert can be pretty safely ignored
You can learn a hell of a lot from hearing two A-players discuss a position--if they are talking about chess! But if they're simply beating their chests and braying things like "The Alapin is a joke," when you know that many strong GMs consider it worth the occasional try, there's not much to learn.
ThrillerFan wrote:
... let's take a database with a LARGE SAMPLE SIZE! www.365chess.com.
1.e4 c5 2.c3, and I mentioned that the best line is 2...Nf6. If we look at 2...Nf6, 31.6% are White wins, 33.8% are Draws, and 34.6% are Black wins.
That's a 48.5% score for White after 1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6. The normal average is a 54% score for White. ...
Any consideration being given to the rating difference for the players?
ThrillerFan wrote:
In fact, let's take a database with a LARGE SAMPLE SIZE! www.365chess.com.
1.e4 c5 2.c3, and I mentioned that the best line is 2...Nf6. If we look at 2...Nf6, 31.6% are White wins, 33.8% are Draws, and 34.6% are Black wins.
That's a 48.5% score for White after 1.e4 c5 2.c3 Nf6. The normal average is a 54% score for White. So if you want to surrender 5 1/2 percent from your score, go ahead and play the Alapin Sicilian!
If you exclude amateur games from that database ( something you haven't done ), by selecting "masters database" in the upper right corner, then the statistics for 2..Nf6 are as follows:
White wins 25.4%
Black wins 22.7%
Draw 51.8%
I can assure you that ThrillerFan will not be moved by facts or logic
It's really quite simple: Play any somewhat respectable opening. Against players weaker than you, you will score very well. Against players around your own strength, you will break even. Against players stronger than you, you will lose more than you win. French, Slav, Alapin Sicilian, it's the same story
Hey, why is everybody being so mean towards @Laskernephew. Show him some respect or I will report you.
ThrillerFan wrote:
Laskersnephew wrote:
"The Alapin is a joke if Black knows what he is doing"
Pointless drivel
Uhm, you are a lowly 1500. What the hell would you know about opening theory.
Yes, the Alapin is nothing beyond equal! If White wants an advantage, he needs to play the Open Sicilian.
Careful there, no need for insults like this. And I think you don't understand that knowing a lot of opening theory does not automatically make someone a good player, like GM Robert Hess said: just the principles like development, king safety and centre control are enough. Even low 1200's like me might know quite a bit, but just don't play up to those standards in the rest of the game