How to obtain an advantage against annoying Lowenthal Sicilian?

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Arcanus_Lupus

Lately, I've been coming across the so-called Lowenthal Sicilian (1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e5 5. Ndb5 a6!?).  The theory books say that the main move for Black at this stage is 5. ... d6, in order to avoid losing the Bishop Pair, but I am having a difficulty proving an advantage in the first line due to my opponent's active pieces after the continuation 5. ... a6!? 6. Nd6+ Bxd6 7. Qxd6 Qf6 8. Qxf6 Nxf6.  Does anyone know how to keep the advantage as White?



Arcanus_Lupus

Do you have longer lines?

Schevenadorf

Play 8.Qd1, which is the move that has caused black the most trouble. Study some theory though, as you always have to do to play open sicilian.

TetsuoShima
Schevenadorf wrote:

Play 8.Qd1, which is the move that has caused black the most trouble. Study some theory though, as you always have to do to play open sicilian.


but to be fair to an amateur like me its really hard to see whites advantage, even though that probably tells more about me than about the position.

TetsuoShima

ok this position might seem obvious for someone who knows it, but i still dont get why in textbooks they just say white is better and end there. Are people who buy those books really good enough to know that stuff?? i mean if i knew that why would i buy a book unless im a book fan.

plutonia
pellik wrote:

All you have to do is maintain the bishop pair and slowly trade off non-bishops. Tie up any loose ends and start advancing your pawns since you should be better able to utilize the ensuing weak squares. There are countless books that explain how to play with the bishop pair. 

 

No sorry, I don't agree. You cannot consider the bishop pair to be an advange that you can hope to convert into a win just by the right technique.

Those "countless" books always show a position where the owner of the bishop pair has a ton of other advantages and the opponent simply rolls on its back.

Strategy books like Nunn's cleary explain that the bishop pair is something that might turn out useful, but it's really hard to get something out of it.

Knight = 3

Bishop = 3

ViktorHNielsen
plutonia wrote:
pellik wrote:

All you have to do is maintain the bishop pair and slowly trade off non-bishops. Tie up any loose ends and start advancing your pawns since you should be better able to utilize the ensuing weak squares. There are countless books that explain how to play with the bishop pair. 

 

No sorry, I don't agree. You cannot consider the bishop pair to be an advange that you can hope to convert into a win just by the right technique.

Those "countless" books always show a position where the owner of the bishop pair has a ton of other advantages and the opponent simply rolls on its back.

Strategy books like Nunn's cleary explain that the bishop pair is something that might turn out useful, but it's really hard to get something out of it.

Knight = 3

Bishop = 3

Knight = 3

Bishop = 3

Bishop pair = ½

You can't win with the bishop pair alone, but when you've learned it, they are quite powerfull. I never really understood why the bishops was superior, but at a chess camp, the training group always said: ¨Black has the bishop pair, so advantage to black.¨ I didn't see it, but started noticing the bishop pair. The result was this game:

It's difficult to find the losing mistake for black. But he lost somehow, and I got alot of pressure on black, and one of the advantages of the bishops is that it is often the player with the bishop pairs who decides when he should trade bishops! But it requires alot of practice, and around 1900 ELO to really use the bishop pair as a big endgame advantage

plutonia
ViktorHNielsen wrote:

It's difficult to find the losing mistake for black. But he lost somehow, and I got alot of pressure on black, and one of the advantages of the bishops is that it is often the player with the bishop pairs who decides when he should trade bishops! But it requires alot of practice, and around 1900 ELO to really use the bishop pair as a big endgame advantage

 

At that chess camp, what do they think of the Nimzo-Indian? :)

You posted a game where the bishop pair is an advantage, and I don't understand why black gave away the bishop in a position that is clearly favouring bishops. Surely in that case trading the bishop should be a ?!.

But what I'm arguing is that the bishop pair, while it is really powerful in certain positions, it does not confer an advantage *per se*. I could post a lot of games, for example with a well placed knight on c5, where the bishop pair gives no advantage at all. It all depends on the position, and in my opinion it all comes down to: how many squares do you control?

 

For your game, I didn't analyse it but just at a glance (in the endgame) the knight on c6 was misplaced. Didn't your opponent think "where does it go from there?".

How about 23...Be6. If you take I'll have a support point for my knight on d5, if you move your bishop you drop a pawn, if you protect it then your rook is tied up and I start activing mine and I can still jump on d5.

TetsuoShima
ViktorHNielsen wrote:
plutonia wrote:
pellik wrote:

All you have to do is maintain the bishop pair and slowly trade off non-bishops. Tie up any loose ends and start advancing your pawns since you should be better able to utilize the ensuing weak squares. There are countless books that explain how to play with the bishop pair. 

 

No sorry, I don't agree. You cannot consider the bishop pair to be an advange that you can hope to convert into a win just by the right technique.

Those "countless" books always show a position where the owner of the bishop pair has a ton of other advantages and the opponent simply rolls on its back.

Strategy books like Nunn's cleary explain that the bishop pair is something that might turn out useful, but it's really hard to get something out of it.

Knight = 3

Bishop = 3

Knight = 3

Bishop = 3

Bishop pair = ½

You can't win with the bishop pair alone, but when you've learned it, they are quite powerfull. I never really understood why the bishops was superior, but at a chess camp, the training group always said: ¨Black has the bishop pair, so advantage to black.¨ I didn't see it, but started noticing the bishop pair. The result was this game:

 

It's difficult to find the losing mistake for black. But he lost somehow, and I got alot of pressure on black, and one of the advantages of the bishops is that it is often the player with the bishop pairs who decides when he should trade bishops! But it requires alot of practice, and around 1900 ELO to really use the bishop pair as a big endgame advantage


but do you realise that in the position you show white has many more tempos and in the position the threadstarter showed, black actually had many tempos for the bishop pair??

TetsuoShima
pfren wrote:

I think 8.Qxf6 is white's best move. He enjoys a small but stable and risk-free advantage in the resulting queenless middlegame, and black has to defend very carefully. But on the other hand, the position(s) are quite technical and may not appeal to everyone.


so the extra tempos are meaningless??

TetsuoShima
pfren wrote:
TetsuoShima wrote:


so the extra tempos are meaningless??

If chess was a tempos countdown, then it would be a very easy game.


im pretty sure you could say the same about the bishop pair countdown, especially considering that black also still has a bisho

xxvalakixx

Qxf6 is good for white. Black has a development advantage, but white has the bishop pair and easy development, and black has weaknesses.

And this will be more important in the endgame.

TetsuoShima
xxvalakixx wrote:

Qxf6 is good for white. Black has a development advantage, but white has the bishop pair and easy development, and black has weaknesses.

And this will be more important in the endgame.


but black get another development move and d5 right away, how can that be good for black.

for me queen d1 looks way more logical.

TetsuoShima

what happens if white plays king d1 instead of knight d3?

TetsuoShima

ok thank you. im really blind, seems under influence even a patzer like me is even worse.

Lippy-Lion

As a Kalashnikov player it is good to sometimes vary from d6 and play a6 instead.

The advantage is white tends to know next to nothing about the Lowenthal and every game tends to go down the same road which makes it very easy for black to learn and play.

At club level it is fine for black and the best player will generally win. 

 

I actually prefer 7....Qd7 over 7...Qf6 as it not really worse and white if he has looked at anything would have been expecting 7...Qf6      The resulting game is ok for black, especially as he will be more familiar with it