If Magnus plays c4, why do most beginers not?

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blueemu
NamNam2019ishKnight wrote:
blueemu wrote:
NamNam2019ishKnight wrote:

Why can't we play c4?

Why shouldn't beginners play the same openings as super-GMs?

Hey... why not drive your car at 370 km/hr like Lewis Hamilton?

After all, he's a world famous Formula 1 driver... he ought to know the best way to drive, right?

Good point. That left me thinking. But still, chess and car racing are two different things.

Beginners and Grandmasters are also two different things. Which was sort of my point.

Actually, there's no reason you can't play complex openings as a beginner. Go nuts. You'll lose lots of games, but you might learn a lot of stuff, too.

SuperFlameNB
blueemu wrote:
NamNam2019ishKnight wrote:
blueemu wrote:
NamNam2019ishKnight wrote:

Why can't we play c4?

Why shouldn't beginners play the same openings as super-GMs?

Hey... why not drive your car at 370 km/hr like Lewis Hamilton?

After all, he's a world famous Formula 1 driver... he ought to know the best way to drive, right?

Good point. That left me thinking. But still, chess and car racing are two different things.

Beginners and Grandmasters are also two different things. Which was sort of my point.

Actually, there's no reason you can't play complex openings as a beginner. Go nuts. You'll lose lots of games, but you might learn a lot of stuff, too.

Who said that c4 was more complex than d4/e4. I have no intention of playing c4, im just wondering why not.

autobunny
NamNam2019ishKnight wrote:

Okay, I would like to clear up something. I never said we physically can't play c4, we can.

there goes the bunny's theory of c pawn odds.  now you tell us.

 

NamNam2019ishKnight wrote:

It's just that, ask almost any beginner coach if we should play c4, and he'll most likely say no.

that is why we get experienced coaches instead of beginner coaches.

 

NamNam2019ishKnight wrote:

I know many people are saying that c4 is very complicated for beginners like me, but then again, c4 is no more as complicated as e4 or d4 if you think about it. I mean, everybody knows e4/d4, and there are so many varaiations that you should learn if you want to improve that specific opening.

perhaps 1. e4 forces you to deal with things you need to learn first earlier.

blueemu

1. c4 might be considered more complex because of all the transpositional possibilities.

It can stay as an English opening (after, for example, 1. ... e5), or transpose into various QP openings such as QGD Orthodox, Slav or Semi-Slav, Catalan, Nimzo- or other Indian formations (KID, QID, Bogo- etc)... there are even certain KP openings that it can transpose into (Caro-Kann Panov, for instance).

But like I said, as long as you don't mind losing games, it might offer learning opportunities.

SuperFlameNB
autobunny wrote:
NamNam2019ishKnight wrote:

Okay, I would like to clear up something. I never said we physically can't play c4, we can.

there goes the bunny's theory of c pawn odds.  now you tell us.

lol

NamNam2019ishKnight wrote:

It's just that, ask almost any beginner coach if we should play c4, and he'll most likely say no.

that is why we get experienced coaches instead of beginner coaches.

i meant, coaches teaching beginners

NamNam2019ishKnight wrote:

I know many people are saying that c4 is very complicated for beginners like me, but then again, c4 is no more as complicated as e4 or d4 if you think about it. I mean, everybody knows e4/d4, and there are so many varaiations that you should learn if you want to improve that specific opening.

perhaps 1. e4 forces you to deal with things you need to learn first earlier.

well, yeah, but once you've learned them then why cant u play c4?

 

SuperFlameNB
blueemu wrote:

1. c4 might be considered more complex because of all the transpositional possibilities.

It can stay as an English opening (after, for example, 1. ... e5), or transpose into various QP openings such as QGD Orthodox, Slav or Semi-Slav, Catalan, Nimzo- or other Indian formations (KID, QID, Bogo- etc)... there are even certain KP openings that it can transpose into (Caro-Kann Panov, for instance).

But like I said, as long as you don't mind losing games, it might offer learning opportunities.

Why is losing games associated with c4? With practice, you'll win/draw games!

autobunny
NamNam2019ishKnight wrote:
autobunny wrote:
*snip* perhaps 1. e4 forces you to deal with things you need to learn first earlier.

well, yeah, but once you've learned them then why cant u play c4?

sure. but at that point perhaps you're not really a beginner anymore.

FizzyBand

The English is complicated and hard to understand as you need to understand many different structures and positions to play it. You need to know how to play both 1.d4ish lines, Reti lines, and more. The English is more strategic than tactical, and weaker players (most of chess.com) cannot fulfill the strategic demands of the English that very strong players (Carlsen, Naka, Kramnik, Anand, Duda, Marin, etc.) can

Prometheus_Fuschs
FizzyBand escribió:

The English is complicated and hard to understand as you need to understand many different structures and positions to play it. You need to know how to play both 1.d4ish lines, Reti lines, and more. The English is more strategic than tactical, and weaker players (most of chess.com) cannot fulfill the strategic demands of the English that very strong players (Carlsen, Naka, Kramnik, Anand, Duda, Marin, etc.) can

But doesn't the same apply to your similarly rated oponent?

A-mateur
Prometheus_Fuschs a écrit :
FizzyBand escribió:

The English is complicated and hard to understand as you need to understand many different structures and positions to play it. You need to know how to play both 1.d4ish lines, Reti lines, and more. The English is more strategic than tactical, and weaker players (most of chess.com) cannot fulfill the strategic demands of the English that very strong players (Carlsen, Naka, Kramnik, Anand, Duda, Marin, etc.) can

But doesn't the same apply to your similarly rated oponent?

+1

 

 

I have better results with the English than with 1.e4 against stronger players than me. However, I'm a weak player.

I think openings that propose clear plans are generally good for beginners (=weak players having some strategical knowledge, not people only knowing the rules). The English is one of them.

 

1.c4 involves a lot of theory, but 1.e4 is even worse for one playing the main lines. 

Steven-ODonoghue

It's too explosive for the beginners to handle

Phylo-Beddo

after 1. c4 b6, white is already in trouble.

A-mateur
Henry-the-VIII a écrit :

after 1. c4 b6, white is already in trouble.

After 2.Nc3 Bb7 3.d4 e6 4.a3, white is perfectly safe IMO.

Dsmith42

After 1. c4 b6, white is hardly in trouble.  He can play 2. Nf3, transposing to a Reti, or 2. d5, converting it to a Queen's pawn game, in both cases both with extra tempo.  However, after 2. d5 black can transpose to an English Defense with 2. ..e6, which is perfectly fine for black, and very sharp, so beginners might want to favor the Reti lines, which are more stable.

Black might trade his b7 bishop for the f3 knight, but this is usually unfavorable for black, especially if the white queen recaptures on f3 (which is a surprisingly secure square even when black still has a light-square bishop).

Mody633

C4 is a great starting move but one has to be ready with a bomb suit since it's very explosive. 

sndeww

It’s explosive unless you like the Botnnivik structure (I spelled it wrong, I think)

SuperFlameNB
autobunny wrote:
NamNam2019ishKnight wrote:
autobunny wrote:
*snip* perhaps 1. e4 forces you to deal with things you need to learn first earlier.

well, yeah, but once you've learned them then why cant u play c4?

sure. but at that point perhaps you're not really a beginner anymore.

Okay, by beginner, I mean people like me that are about 700-1100 USCF

SuperFlameNB
Steven-ODonoghue wrote:

It's too explosive for the beginners to handle

I mean, I play the French reguarly, so...

Phylo-Beddo
A-mateur wrote:
Henry-the-VIII a écrit :

after 1. c4 b6, white is already in trouble.

After 2.Nc3 Bb7 3.d4 e6 4.a3, white is perfectly safe IMO.

4 .... f5 has been a game changer in my neck of the woods.

pfren
NamNam2019ishKnight έγραψε:

Why can't we play c4?

 

You can play whatever opening you want, but this won't make you a better player- let alone playing something remotely reminiscent to Carlsen's style.