AngryPuffer wrote:
woops meant 0.6
My useless picture is less useless than yours (higher depth, stronger engine).
Is the Fischer Sozin Attack Busted?
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Optimissed wrote:
blueemu wrote:
Optimissed wrote:
blueemu wrote:
Look at the advantages and drawbacks of Na5.
Advantages:
1) It trades off the White Bishop on b3, for a Knight.
But white can play a check.
2) It clears the b7-e4 diagonal for the (eventual) Black Bishop on b7.
Yes, that's a bad reason though ... slow for black and white can go f3.
Disadvantages:
1) It loses a clear tempo (a Knight moves three times to trade for a Bishop that moved twice).
2) It exchanges one of Black's more influential pieces (that Knight should be heading for c4).
3) It moves White's a-Pawn to b3, where it controls the important c4 square and shields the weakness on b2.
Well, c4 is no longer so important when black doesn't have a knight to put there.
4) It opens the a-file, making b7-b5 more difficult to arrange without simply dropping the Pawn to N(d4)xb5 (Black's a-Pawn is pinned).
Black has other modes of development. I'm not overly worried about white not having an a pawn if black has compen and by and large as black I like to get rid of a bishop on the c4 diagonal or blot it out by playing e6, a6, b5, d5 and c4 if white's played a closed Sicilian. But generally, get rid of it and it doesn't matter to black if a extra knight move was made. It's worth it. Black can use different development patterns. Maybe b6 and a5.
5) Black gives up some of his central control and leaves White's d4-Knight unchallenged.
The Sicilian is quite double-edged, innit.
- But white can play a check.
Irrelevant. Playing Ba4+ looks rather worse for White than just allowing Nxb3. Moving a Bishop four times (Bf1-c4-b3-a4+xd7) just to trade it for a Black Bishop that moved only once, and which has fewer prospects than Black's c6-Knight anyway?
- Well, c4 is no longer so important when black doesn't have a knight to put there.
Black has another Knight. N(f6)-d7-b6-c4.
- Yes, that's a bad reason though ... slow for black and white can go f3.
The Bishop on b7 does considerably more than just attack e4. It supports d6-d5, for one thing. Also, if White bases his center position on playing f2-f3, then he isn't going to be playing f4 (or f5).
I play moves like Na5 if I think I can get away with it but I prefer not to do that and to try to blot out the bishop with pawns. If I can't get rid of the Sozin bishop in one way or another, I'm not going to play Bb7 because white can generate threats faster, so it belongs on d7 unless Bb7 is very strong for black.
I'm not convinced that you've managed to argue that Fisher's Sozin is a good opening for white. Do you really think it's good? As black, I find that I win games where it gets messy on the Q-side if I'm playing well, because black should be able to organise more there. I lose if it's messy and I'm not playing well.
I agree with @Mazetoskylo that even if 0.7 were correct, which I very much doubt, it's not all that significant. That's because computers calculate positions by the gradual aggregation of fractions of a positional advantage. If they have it at +0.7 and can average a, O.O5 improvement per move, in 20 moves' time that +1.7 might actually amount to something like a winning advantage.
i think the sozin is playable when black has allready played Nc6 so he wont have the Nd7-Nc5 maneuver (like in the najdorf)
but even then its still playable
regardless of it being 0.00 its still dynamic and not very drawish looking
Jun 22, 2023
0
#64
I think the Sozin is playable. I don't think it's as good as some of White's other options, and I don't play it myself as White (except for the Velimirovic Attack, given above).
In fact, I've done quite well playing Black against it.
One solution (for Black) to the White Bishop's pressure on e6 is to fianchetto the Black Queen (!) instead of the Bishop. Then the Bishop can stay on c8 to protect e6, until Black catches up in development and no longer needs to fear a saceifice on e6.
i have no games in the sozin because everyone else at my level is too busy playing the closed sicilian or some other system opening
but the very few times i have gotten it (on lichess) i find good success it targeting the weak e4 pawn with a queenside fiachetto and a knight on c5
Jun 22, 2023
0
#66
AngryPuffer wrote:
i have no games in the sozin...
LOL.
A Heroic Defense in the Sicilian Najdorf - Kids, don't try this at home! - Chess Forums - Chess.com
Fischer Sozin is awesome and has a lot of sting. Quite powerful as well 💥
are the a3 lines in the sozin bad or feeble? they look decent and you hold onto your bishop
Jun 26, 2023
0
#69
Somebody (Soltis? Evans? Bisguier?) played the Bc4+a3 line against Fischer's Najdorf and lost. When he asked Fischer how he should have handled that a3 line as White, Fischer replied that "the whole line is worthless".
... that's one man's opinion, anyway.
Jun 27, 2023
0
#70
Ultimate-trashtalker wrote:
Blueemu,can u show me the ur way against the sozin and what to do if they don't move the bishop to b3?
Look, people... I almost never rely on memorized openings. In the past 30 years I've won ONE game entirely by superior opening prep. ONE. And I'm sure you already know which one.
This game...
A Heroic Defense in the Sicilian Najdorf - Kids, don't try this at home! - Chess Forums - Chess.com
... and post #85 above illustrate my recent method of play against the Sozin.
I rely on understanding which squares are critical, and how Black can find counter-play, and how to handle each of the likely center formations that might arise from the opening.
I have basically zero faith in relying on memorized lines. You should remember the lines by first UNDERSTANDING them... do not try to understand them by memorizing them.
Not sure I understand the other question. If White doesn't move his c4-Bishop, I'll take it with my b5-Pawn. You mean, what does Black do if the Bishop retreats to d3 or e2 instead of b3? That just leaves Black a move ahead (the White Bishop moved twice to reach a square that it could have reached in a single move). I would play that like a 6. Be2 Najdorf, but with an extra move for Black.
i personally think the fischer sozin produces some of the most sharp games to exist in chess.
but what do you guys recommend agianst the Nbd7-Nc5 manuver in the fischer-sozin? often times the e4 pawn will get pressured to death and white will have to end up sacking everything and exploding the lightsquared diagonal
Jul 3, 2023
0
#72
AngryPuffer wrote:
i personally think the fischer sozin produces some of the most sharp games to exist in chess.
but what do you guys recommend agianst the Nbd7-Nc5 manuver in the fischer-sozin? often times the e4 pawn will get pressured to death and white will have to end up sacking everything and exploding the lightsquared diagonal
That Nbd7-c5 maneuver was what I used to play as Black in OTB tournaments, until I settled on my current "fianchetto the Queen" defense (consisting of b7-b5 then Qb6-b7).
blueemu wrote:
AngryPuffer wrote:
i personally think the fischer sozin produces some of the most sharp games to exist in chess.
but what do you guys recommend agianst the Nbd7-Nc5 manuver in the fischer-sozin? often times the e4 pawn will get pressured to death and white will have to end up sacking everything and exploding the lightsquared diagonal
That Nbd7-c5 maneuver was what I used to play as Black in OTB tournaments, until I settled on my current "fianchetto the Queen" defense (consisting of b7-b5 then Qb6-b7).
what did you consider whites best attempt in the Nbd7-c5 manuver? currently i just go with the main line with f4-Qf3
Jul 3, 2023
0
#74
Either Qf3 or f5 gives White play.
Losing the e-Pawn isn't a disaster for White as long as he gets lots of activity for it.
blueemu wrote:
Either Qf3 or f5 gives White play.
Losing the e-Pawn isn't a disaster for White as long as he gets lots of activity for it.
could you give example line(s)?
Jul 3, 2023
0
#76
I don't have any old scoresheets with me.
Don't you use the online 365chess database? It's free.
Ultimate-trashtalker wrote:
I have seen people combining the English attack with Fischer sozin and it's also a version u should be familiar with
Velimirovic attack, playable mainly against the Classical Sicilian.
i think the fischer-sozin is playable agianst the classical sicilian. but not as much agianst the najdorf because of that Nbd7-c5 manuver (blacks most testing option)
allthough white can get play in the najdorf fischer-sozin. its just harder than in the classical
and also the pressure on e4 is major
woops meant 0.6