hopefully someone reads this
Is the Ruy Lopez A lie?
im just commenting to get this post onto hot topics, so please dont be mad at me. I'm just dying for an answer.
[please don't post a bunch of random/single letter posts to try and get your post to hot topics -- MOD]


I kinda see where you're coming from, Bb5 doesn't pin the Knight, but after a6 Bxc6, dxc6 Nxe5 white won a pawn. As for 0-0, after Nxe4, Re1, black moves the Knight, white wins the pawn back.
i just did a bunch on different possible lines on an analysis board, and it appears to me that if black makes the right moves, black still ends up on top, and wins the e4 pawn without getting a piece or pawn disadvantage, though maybe a positional disadvantage. i used the komodo 8 engine to analyze this position in the game and black still comes out on top
I kinda see where you're coming from, Bb5 doesn't pin the Knight, but after a6 Bxc6, dxc6 Nxe5 white won a pawn. As for 0-0, after Nxe4, Re1, black moves the Knight, white wins the pawn back.
wyeah i guess white wins the pawn back, except then immediately after taking the e5 pawn black plays Nxe5, taking whites rook and thus giving black an advantage.
what does it mean for something to be an indirect attack anyways? like I can understand how it is an indirect attack, but i dont see how the bishop's indirect attack does anything to affect the rest of the play going on around the e4 pawn
what does it mean for something to be an indirect attack anyways? like I can understand how it is an indirect attack, but i dont see how the bishop's indirect attack does anything to affect the rest of the play going on around the e4 pawn
JoEvJohn wrote:
3. Bb5Attacking the c6-knight, which in turn increases the attack on the e5-pawn because the c6-knight is defending it.
"...I don't understand move 3. Bb5
The reason you don't understand the move is because attacking the N is a secondary purpose for the 3.Bb5. The underlying strategy behind the move is to restrain the advance of Black's pawns at a7, b7, c7, and d7. The principal pawn that White wants to restrain the advance of is the pawn at d7. That pawn is critically important to Black's control of the center. If Black plays the 3...d5 or 3...d6, White can saddle Black with an exploitable doubled pawn complex after the moves 4.Bxc6+ bxc6.

(p. 53)
Game 9
Znosko-Borovsky - Mackenzie
Weston-super-Mare 1924
Ruy Lopez
1 e4
This first move occupies the centre
with a pawn and frees four squares
for the queen and five for the f1-
bishop. One of the reasons many
players prefer 1 e4 to any other
opening move is that it gets the
kingside pieces rolling quickly, en-
abling early castling on that side.
1 ... e5
In the old days this was almost
compulsory. It indicated that you
were willing to stand toe-to-toe and
slug it out. Only a coward would
avoid 1...e5 and a possible gambit by
White.
Objectively considered, the text-
move is perhaps Black's strongest
response. It challenges possession of
the centre and prevents White from
monopolizing it by continuing 2 d4.
2 Nf3
What happens if White persists
and plays 2 d4? The reply 2...exd4
leads to 3 Qxd4 Nc6 4 Qe3 Nf6,
when Black has two pieces in play to
one of White's. This amounts to tak-
ing the initiative away from White
early in the game.
The text-move is far more effec-
tive than random development of the
knight, for instance at h3, where it is
out of touch with affairs in the cen-
tre, or at e2, where it blocks all traf-
fic.
2 ... Nc6
The logical way to meet the attack
on the pawn; a minor piece develops
toward the centre and defends the
pawn.
The general plan of mobilization
is to establish a pawn in the centre,
develop the minor pieces (the knights
before bishops, whenever feasible),
then castle to get the rooks to the
centre files, and finally bring the
queen out--but not too far from
home. Premature development of
the queen is dangerous, as it is sub-
ject to annoying attacks by pawns
and minor pieces.
3 Bb5 (D)
(p. 54)
r1bqkbnr/pppp1ppp/2n5/1B2p3/4P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R b KQkq - 3 2
The most natural move on the
board: White strikes at the defender
of the pawn he attacks. It is true that
he cannot win the pawn at once, as
after 4 Bxc6 dxc6 5 Nxe5 Qd4
Black regains the pawn, but the pres-
sure on Black is constant, and the
threat is always in the air.
The Ruy Lopez is probably the
strongest of all kingside openings.
White has more to say in the centre,
since he will be able to play d4 with-
out much trouble, while Black will
find it difficult to achieve ...d5.
White's pieces have more room to
move around in, while Black's game
is considerably cramped in many
variations.
Chernev. Irving. 1998. Logical Chess: Move by Move. London: Batsford.
3.Bb5
It's not only good in that it develops a piece and influences the center (indirectly in this case). But it also gets out of the way so to speak of other pieces. On e2 or d3 it will in the future physically block a center file for use by a rook or queen. c4 is a good alternative, but puts less pressure on black, so I would argue makes less use of the first move advantage.
3...a6
First of all, it is a legitimate choice to not play a6. After a6, it is a legitimate choice to capture the knight. In chess there's always a trade off... white gives up the bishop pair (which is somewhat meaningful) and in return damages the pawn structure (which is also somewhat meaningful). The implications are too much to get into, but suffice to say neither option is clearly better. Modern GMs tend to prefer moves that keep more pieces on the board or evolve into more complex positions so as to have more chances to outplay their opponent.
Secondly, you shouldn't regard pawn moves as a development. a6 would waste a move in the opening, if it didn't force white to move the bishop again. So both the move a6, and the forced response (whatever white chooses) are both counted as a waste of time in the opening (which aims to develop as quickly as possible) and so they cancel each other out. So to reiterate, a6 is not a loss of time, and whether white captures or retreats, this is also not a loss of time.
5.0-0
First of all, while you're correct that e4 is not defended directly, it's defended in the sense that if captured, white will have a forced series of moves to win one of black's pawns (very likely black's e5 pawn). So while it's possible to capture e4, it's not possible to win a pawn by capturing e4.
Secondly, 0-0 is considered best in the sense that it's a development move that will need to be played anyway. 5.d3 defends the pawn, but by playing this white loses the option to play d4 in a single move. In other words 0-0 is useful in all future positions, but d3 is not. Similarly the defense 5.Nc3 blocks white's c pawn.
5...Be7
It's true that black could have taken the e4 pawn. The point of Be7 is that if now white plays a nonsense move like h3, black's capture of the e4 pawn will win material. That is to say, white will not be able to win a pawn in return to make it even again.
what does it mean for something to be an indirect attack anyways? like I can understand how it is an indirect attack, but i dont see how the bishop's indirect attack does anything to affect the rest of the play going on around the e4 pawn
In chess in almost every position there is almost always at least 2 ways to defend against a threat. There is a direct defense and there is an indirect defense. The difference between the 2 are the following:
With indirect defense you keep the initiative (the attack)
With indirect defense you threaten to do something worse to your opponent than he is threatening to do to you (ex. opponent is threatening to take your Q. So you threaten to checkmate him on the move. Not very likely he is going to take your Q.)
With direct defense you lose the initiative (the attack)
Okay, thank you alvin, fields, sqod, and the guy whos username is binary code, for your all your help and for not getting extremely rude and hostile towards me for posting too much sometimes.

I think the original poster is being an azzhole on purpose and purposefully making fun of someone. I honestly have no idea why, though.
Insulting someone on purpose... what a guy...

Of course the Ruy López is a lie, a conspiration even older than Darwinism, why they have lasted so long is beyond me though.

so i read an article about chess opening basics by a International master on this website. and he provided this game as an example of a chess opening, and he chose to demostrate the ruy lopez with explanations of each move.
Someone please explain to me