Is the Ruy Lopez A lie?

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JoEvJohn

so i read an article about chess opening basics by a International master on this website. and he provided this game as an example of a chess opening, and he chose to demostrate the ruy lopez with explanations of each move.

Someone please explain to me 

 
I don't understand move 3. Bb5
this attacks the knight yeah, so i kinda get it, but really it doesn't seem that effective to me, I can't seem to wrap my head around the idea that this is such a great move, but keep on reading below
 
3...a6,
well this makes no sense at all when you think about it. If White really wanted to take blacks knight, then white would make the move 4.Bxc6, thus taking blacks knight, and making blacks pawn move to a6 obselete. But if white didn't plan on taking  blacks knight right away, then why move your bishop over there when your going to have to move him back anyway to keep blacks a6 pawn from taking your b5 bishop. Plus, if white isn't planning on attacking the c6 Knight, then how does the move 3. Bb5 do anything, because black wouldn't have to worry about white taking the b5 bishop, because he knows that once white make Bxc6 then black can take the bishop with one of his pawns. If white really was attacking the c6 knight, then why doesnt white just take the c6 knight. If you aren't planning on taking the c6 knight, and you aren't pinning that knight, then why would you make the move 3.Bb5. And why would you make the move 3.Bb5 when it can be so easily countered anyways??
 
5.0-0
 
well this move makes no sense at all. it doesn't defend the e4 pawn at all. The e4 pawn is still a hanging piece and totally unprotected and in danger of being captured on the next move. Black can literally just make the move 5...Nxe4 and now white has lost it's e4 pawn. I get that white the makes the move 6. Re1, and this now protects the e4 pawn, but the e4 pawn might already have been taken by blacks knight, thus making the move pointless. Plus, even if this were supposedly to defend the e4 pawn, there are many other/better options white has for defending this e4 pawn, ones that only require making 1 move for the e4 pawn to be safe, and not requiring 2 moves of 5. 0-0 and 6. Re1 for the e4 pawn to be protected. THIS MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE. HOW ON EARTH IS 5.0-0 THE BEST MOVE BC IT DEFENDS THE E4 PAWN?????
 
5...Be7
I don't even know where to begin on this one. WTF IS black protecting its king from. There are still two pieces between the King on the e file and the rook. THE KING WAS STILL PLENTY SAFE ON THE E FILE TO BEGIN WITH!!!! The only benefit i can see from this move is that it frees black up to castle. and also, Black was already safe to make an attack on the e4 pawn a while ago. 5...Be7 doesnt free up blacks knight so that black can now finally make an attack on the e4 pawn, instead of making the move 5...Be7, why doesn't black just attack the e4 pawn like he supposedly wants to do by doing 5...Nxe4!!! THE E4 PAWN IS STILL TOTALLY UNPROTECTED.
 
 
SERIOUSLY GUYS, I'M LOSING MY MIND HERE!!
 
JoEvJohn

hopefully someone reads this

JoEvJohn

im just commenting to get this post onto hot topics, so please dont be mad at me. I'm just dying for an answer.

 

[please don't post a bunch of random/single letter posts to try and get your post to hot topics -- MOD]

cameronhambym
Be7 allows blacks knight to capture the pawn because if he takes the pawn white will respond with Qe2 black will need to move his knight and white can take blacks e5 pawn with his knight now that it's protected by his queen that can take and put black in check
checkmate3141

I kinda see where you're coming from, Bb5 doesn't pin the Knight, but after a6 Bxc6, dxc6 Nxe5 white won a pawn. As for 0-0, after Nxe4, Re1, black moves the Knight, white wins the pawn back. 

JoEvJohn
cameronhambym wrote:
Be7 allows blacks knight to capture the pawn because if he takes the pawn white will respond with Qe2 black will need to move his knight and white can take blacks e5 pawn with his knight now that it's protected by his queen that can take and put black in check

i just did a bunch on different possible lines on an analysis board, and it appears to me that if black makes the right moves, black still ends up on top, and wins the e4 pawn without getting a piece or pawn disadvantage, though maybe a positional disadvantage. i used the komodo 8 engine to analyze this position in the game and black still comes out on top

JoEvJohn
checkmate3141 wrote:

I kinda see where you're coming from, Bb5 doesn't pin the Knight, but after a6 Bxc6, dxc6 Nxe5 white won a pawn. As for 0-0, after Nxe4, Re1, black moves the Knight, white wins the pawn back. 

w

yeah i guess white wins the pawn back, except then immediately after taking the e5 pawn black plays Nxe5, taking whites rook and thus giving black an advantage.

Henson_Chess

he takes tje pawn back with his f3 knight, not the rook

Henson_Chess

@alvin Bxc6, dxc6 Nxe5 Qd4!

JoEvJohn

what does it mean for something to be an indirect attack anyways? like I can understand how it is an indirect attack, but i dont see how the bishop's indirect attack does anything to affect the rest of the play going on around the e4 pawn

fieldsofforce
JoEvJohn wrote:

what does it mean for something to be an indirect attack anyways? like I can understand how it is an indirect attack, but i dont see how the bishop's indirect attack does anything to affect the rest of the play going on around the e4 pawn

 

JoEvJohn wrote:

3. Bb5Attacking the c6-knight, which in turn increases the attack on the e5-pawn because the c6-knight is defending it. 

                         "...I don't understand move 3. Bb5

this attacks the knight yeah, so i kinda get it, but really it doesn't seem that effective to me, I can't seem to wrap my head around the idea that this is such a great move,..."


The reason you don't understand  the move is  because attacking the N is a secondary purpose for the 3.Bb5.  The underlying strategy behind  the move is to restrain  the advance of Black's pawns at a7, b7, c7, and d7.  The principal  pawn that White wants to restrain the advance of is the pawn at d7.  That pawn is  critically important to Black's control of the center.  If  Black plays the 3...d5 or 3...d6, White can  saddle Black with  an exploitable doubled pawn complex after the moves 4.Bxc6+ bxc6.
 
I hope that with this first clue as to what is really going  on you will be able to get on the right track to  understanding the Ruy Lopez  
Sqod

(p. 53)

      Game 9

      Znosko-Borovsky - Mackenzie

      Weston-super-Mare 1924

      Ruy Lopez

 

      1 e4

   This first move occupies the centre

with a pawn and frees four squares

for the queen and five for the f1-

bishop. One of the reasons many

players prefer 1 e4 to any other

opening move is that it gets the

kingside pieces rolling quickly, en-

abling early castling on that side.

      1 ... e5

   In the old days this was almost

compulsory. It indicated that you

were willing to stand toe-to-toe and

slug it out. Only a coward would

avoid 1...e5 and a possible gambit by

White.

   Objectively considered, the text-

move is perhaps Black's strongest

response. It challenges possession of

the centre and prevents White from 

monopolizing it by continuing 2 d4.

      2 Nf3

   What happens if White persists

and plays 2 d4? The reply 2...exd4

leads to 3 Qxd4 Nc6 4 Qe3 Nf6,

when Black has two pieces in play to

one of White's. This amounts to tak-

ing the initiative away from White

early in the game.

   The text-move is far more effec-

tive than random development of the

knight, for instance at h3, where it is

out of touch with affairs in the cen-

tre, or at e2, where it blocks all traf-

fic.

      2 ... Nc6

   The logical way to meet the attack

on the pawn; a minor piece develops

toward the centre and defends the

pawn.

   The general plan of mobilization

is to establish a pawn in the centre,

develop the minor pieces (the knights

before bishops, whenever feasible),

then castle to get the rooks to the

centre files, and finally bring the

queen out--but not too far from

home. Premature development of

the queen is dangerous, as it is sub-

ject to annoying attacks by pawns

and minor pieces.

      3 Bb5 (D)

(p. 54)

r1bqkbnr/pppp1ppp/2n5/1B2p3/4P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R b KQkq - 3 2

 

   The most natural move on the 

board: White strikes at the defender

of the pawn he attacks. It is true that

he cannot win the pawn at once, as

after 4 Bxc6 dxc6 5 Nxe5 Qd4

Black regains the pawn, but the pres-

sure on Black is constant, and the

threat is always in the air.

   The Ruy Lopez is probably the

strongest of all kingside openings.

White has more to say in the centre,

since he will be able to play d4 with-

out much trouble, while Black will

find it difficult to achieve ...d5.

   White's pieces have more room to

move around in, while Black's game

is considerably cramped in many

variations.

Chernev. Irving. 1998. Logical Chess: Move by Move. London: Batsford.

u0110001101101000

3.Bb5
It's not only good in that it develops a piece and influences the center (indirectly in this case). But it also gets out of the way so to speak of other pieces. On e2 or d3 it will in the future physically block a center file for use by a rook or queen. c4 is a good alternative, but puts less pressure on black, so I would argue makes less use of the first move advantage.

3...a6
First of all, it is a legitimate choice to not play a6. After a6, it is a legitimate choice to capture the knight. In chess there's always a trade off... white gives up the bishop pair (which is somewhat meaningful) and in return damages the pawn structure (which is also somewhat meaningful). The implications are too much to get into, but suffice to say neither option is clearly better. Modern GMs tend to prefer moves that keep more pieces on the board or evolve into more complex positions so as to have more chances to outplay their opponent.

Secondly, you shouldn't regard pawn moves as a development. a6 would waste a move in the opening, if it didn't force white to move the bishop again. So both the move a6, and the forced response (whatever white chooses) are both counted as a waste of time in the opening (which aims to develop as quickly as possible) and so they cancel each other out. So to reiterate, a6 is not a loss of time, and whether white captures or retreats, this is also not a loss of time.

5.0-0
First of all, while you're correct that e4 is not defended directly, it's defended in the sense that if captured, white will have a forced series of moves to win one of black's pawns (very likely black's e5 pawn). So while it's possible to capture e4, it's not possible to win a pawn by capturing e4.

Secondly, 0-0 is considered best in the sense that it's a development move that will need to be played anyway. 5.d3 defends the pawn, but by playing this white loses the option to play d4 in a single move. In other words 0-0 is useful in all future positions, but d3 is not. Similarly the defense 5.Nc3 blocks white's c pawn.

5...Be7
It's true that black could have taken the e4 pawn. The point of Be7 is that if now white plays a nonsense move like h3, black's capture of the e4 pawn will win material. That is to say, white will not be able to win a pawn in return to make it even again.

fieldsofforce
JoEvJohn wrote:

what does it mean for something to be an indirect attack anyways? like I can understand how it is an indirect attack, but i dont see how the bishop's indirect attack does anything to affect the rest of the play going on around the e4 pawn

In chess in almost every position there is almost always at least 2 ways to defend against a threat.  There is a direct defense and there is an indirect defense.  The difference between the 2 are the following:

With indirect defense you keep the initiative (the attack)

With indirect defense you threaten to do something worse to your opponent than he is  threatening to do to you (ex. opponent is threatening to  take your Q.  So you threaten to checkmate him on the move.  Not very likely  he is going to take your Q.)

 With direct defense you lose the initiative (the attack)

JoEvJohn

Okay, thank you alvin, fields, sqod, and the guy whos username is binary code, for your all your help and for not getting extremely rude and hostile towards me for posting too much sometimes.

Nicholas_Shannon80

I think the original poster is being an azzhole on purpose and purposefully making fun of someone. I honestly have no idea why, though.

Insulting someone on purpose... what a guy...

Pulpofeira

Of course the Ruy López is a lie, a conspiration even older than Darwinism, why they have lasted so long is beyond me though.

Daybreak57

 

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I don't understand move 3. Bb5
this attacks the knight yeah, so i kinda get it, but really it doesn't seem that effective to me, I can't seem to wrap my head around the idea that this is such a great move, but keep on reading below
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It's an alternative to the Italian game.  The Ruy Lopez is the test of a true chess player.  If you can play the Ruy Lopez well, then you are doing good as a budding chess player.  The Italian game focus' on blacks weakest sqaure, f7, and there are many things black can do to defend this threat up to and including opting to trade off those color bishops, as well as playing h6 early on to avoid any pins mainly to annoy the person who loves the cheap Italian tricks.  h6 and trading off the light squared bishops doesn't solve all the threats created by the weakness the h6 move has caused if black so chooses to castle kingside, but still it's generally hard to get an advantage as white in the Italian unless you are just so good at it that you've learned to not really make any mistakes in that opening and just wait out until your opponent makes a miscalculation.  A lot of chess is merely about just frustrating your opponent to make a bad move by playing good chess.  
 
Anyway, the purpose behind Bb5 is really to attack the knight.  Some people prefer to preserve the bishop, and after a6 they retreat the knight, and some, choose to take the knight, and then they transition into the exchange variation where they will have a 4 on 3 majority.  Look up danny rensch's videos about the Ruy Lopez to learn what that means.  If they do not like the exchange variation, for whatever reason, they will preserve the bishop, knowing that it will eventually be posted on the a2-g8 diagonal for a potential attack there.  I hear Bobby Fischer loved to place his bishop there, so there may be something to parking that bishop there.  
 
The answer to your question is simply that some people prefer to trade the knight for the bishop doubling blacks pawns creating a 4 on 3 majority.  As I said some people don't like it, and would rather preserve the bishop, hoping for a counter attack on the a2-g8 diagonal at some point.  
 
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3...a6,
well this makes no sense at all when you think about it. If White really wanted to take blacks knight, then white would make the move 4.Bxc6, thus taking blacks knight, and making blacks pawn move to a6 obselete. But if white didn't plan on taking  blacks knight right away, then why move your bishop over there when your going to have to move him back anyway to keep blacks a6 pawn from taking your b5 bishop. Plus, if white isn't planning on attacking the c6 Knight, then how does the move 3. Bb5 do anything, because black wouldn't have to worry about white taking the b5 bishop, because he knows that once white make Bxc6 then black can take the bishop with one of his pawns. If white really was attacking the c6 knight, then why doesnt white just take the c6 knight. If you aren't planning on taking the c6 knight, and you aren't pinning that knight, then why would you make the move 3.Bb5. And why would you make the move 3.Bb5 when it can be so easily countered anyways??
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a6 simply gains time on the bishop.  That's all there is to that move really.  There is not grand purpose behind it.  Just gaining time by attacking the bishop.
 
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5.0-0
 
well this move makes no sense at all. it doesn't defend the e4 pawn at all. The e4 pawn is still a hanging piece and totally unprotected and in danger of being captured on the next move. Black can literally just make the move 5...Nxe4 and now white has lost it's e4 pawn. I get that white the makes the move 6. Re1, and this now protects the e4 pawn, but the e4 pawn might already have been taken by blacks knight, thus making the move pointless. Plus, even if this were supposedly to defend the e4 pawn, there are many other/better options white has for defending this e4 pawn, ones that only require making 1 move for the e4 pawn to be safe, and not requiring 2 moves of 5. 0-0 and 6. Re1 for the e4 pawn to be protected. THIS MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE. HOW ON EARTH IS 5.0-0 THE BEST MOVE BC IT DEFENDS THE E4 PAWN?????
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You apparently arn't aquainted with the fact that the Ruy Lopez is one of the oldest openings in existance.  It has been played again and again by masters.  I doubt you figured out a way to get away with taking the pawn on e4 after white castles without first playing Be7.  It's like you didn't even read the commentary yourself.  The answer is right in front of you.
 
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5...Be7
I don't even know where to begin on this one. WTF IS black protecting its king from. There are still two pieces between the King on the e file and the rook. THE KING WAS STILL PLENTY SAFE ON THE E FILE TO BEGIN WITH!!!! The only benefit i can see from this move is that it frees black up to castle. and also, Black was already safe to make an attack on the e4 pawn a while ago. 5...Be7 doesnt free up blacks knight so that black can now finally make an attack on the e4 pawn, instead of making the move 5...Be7, why doesn't black just attack the e4 pawn like he supposedly wants to do by doing 5...Nxe4!!! THE E4 PAWN IS STILL TOTALLY UNPROTECTED.
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You already know the answer it's just apparently you think you found a solution to an over 100 year old problem of being nailed after greedily grabbing the pawn on e4 as black.
 
SERIOUSLY GUYS, I'M LOSING MY MIND HERE!!
 
Be safe!
JoEvJohn

I've been experimenting with the ruy lopez, but recently, when I go 1.e4, they always respond with the sicilian defense, its rare usually that I get the kings pawn game, and even less often that they allow me to reach the ruy lopez, usually i end up encountering the philidor defense #2

JoEvJohn

I feel like there aren't enough variations of many openings, for example I feel like there needs to be a lot more studying of the english opening. but there is hardly any