Is the Ruy Lopez A lie?

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thegreat_patzer

Another fun fact about working on a single opening.

unless you have a cooperative opponent....

anyways 1.e4 is infamous for having many, many good replies (see a current thread about that).

thegreat_patzer
JoEvJohn wrote:

I feel like there aren't enough variations of many openings, for example I feel like there needs to be a lot more studying of the english opening. but there is hardly any

now first of all.

Technically there is Any legal move in these openings and some are playable (but not positionally strong).

second of all, positions multiply as the opening unfolds, and so does the possibility that you will find or make a legitamite blunder.

lastly, if you're trying to memorize stuff (espacially deeply). I wish you well. but I'm sure you're doing it all wrong.  as said many, many,many times- being great at tactics is far better use of anyones time.

 

you don't have to play what the masters play!

(now the secret it out) but if you play hokey, pointless moves you're not doing yourself any favors for getting better at chess.

JoEvJohn

But i wish there were some more studied opening, because i don't know whether some moves i am making are great moves against anyone, or maybe my opponent is kind of unskilled and the move works well because of my opponents lack of skill

aljekhins_knife
JoEvJohn wrote:
cameronhambym wrote:
Be7 allows blacks knight to capture the pawn because if he takes the pawn white will respond with Qe2 black will need to move his knight and white can take blacks e5 pawn with his knight now that it's protected by his queen that can take and put black in check

i just did a bunch on different possible lines on an analysis board, and it appears to me that if black makes the right moves, black still ends up on top, and wins the e4 pawn without getting a piece or pawn disadvantage, though maybe a positional disadvantage. i used the komodo 8 engine to analyze this position in the game and black still comes out on top

Yes of course, the Ruy Lopez favors Black.  Now if all the super GMs in the world could only be made to understand.

JoEvJohn
aknife_01 wrote:
JoEvJohn wrote:
cameronhambym wrote:
Be7 allows blacks knight to capture the pawn because if he takes the pawn white will respond with Qe2 black will need to move his knight and white can take blacks e5 pawn with his knight now that it's protected by his queen that can take and put black in check

i just did a bunch on different possible lines on an analysis board, and it appears to me that if black makes the right moves, black still ends up on top, and wins the e4 pawn without getting a piece or pawn disadvantage, though maybe a positional disadvantage. i used the komodo 8 engine to analyze this position in the game and black still comes out on top

Yes of course, the Ruy Lopez favors Black.  Now if all the super GMs in the world could only be made to understand.

woah  now lets not go too far, if magnus carlsen and bobby fischer played it, then it cannot be totally bad

 

JoEvJohn
Pulpofeira wrote:

Of course the Ruy López is a lie, a conspiration even older than Darwinism, why they have lasted so long is beyond me though.

let me guess your probably a catholic, strictly against the idea of evolution

aljekhins_knife
JoEvJohn wrote:
aknife_01 wrote:

Yes of course, the Ruy Lopez favors Black.  Now if all the super GMs in the world could only be made to understand.

woah  now lets not go too far, if magnus carlsen and bobby fischer played it, then it cannot be totally bad

Do you know what sarcasm is?

aljekhins_knife
Nicholas_Shannon80 wrote:

I think the original poster is being an azzhole on purpose and purposefully making fun of someone. I honestly have no idea why, though.

Insulting someone on purpose... what a guy...

But insulting someone accidentally, that's OK?

fieldsofforce
JoEvJohn wrote:

But i wish there were some more studied opening, because i don't know whether some moves i am making are great moves against anyone, or maybe my opponent is kind of unskilled and the move works well because of my opponents lack of skill

Studied openings like the  Ruy Lopez and the Sicilian Defense are going  to be analyzed for optimal move variations.  And, there are many, including transpositions to other openings or other variations which the author will make you aware  of What will not be analyzed are suboptimal moves except very  occasionally for some moves that the author finds are useful in illustrating a point about the particular position.

The goal of practicing an opening repertoire is to become so familiar with the positions that you have acccumulated a visualization pattern memory bank.  This memory  bank will  enable you to  exploit  suboptimal moves during a game with dispatch, instead of getting  into time trouble on your clock. 

Henson_Chess

jengaias... I have a whole new respect for your explanation skills...

Pingpongpaul
To understand an opening try and play it from both sides. Also pointing out deficiencies in a move is insufficient if you don't compare it with alternatives. The point of the Ruy Lopez is that white can play in a more forcing way than other lines and so black is forced to make some positional concessions which can last quite a way into the middlegame. Saying a6 doesn't solve the problem is a bit silly unless you suggest an alternative that does.
JoEvJohn
Pingpongpaul wrote:
To understand an opening try and play it from both sides. Also pointing out deficiencies in a move is insufficient if you don't compare it with alternatives. The point of the Ruy Lopez is that white can play in a more forcing way than other lines and so black is forced to make some positional concessions which can last quite a way into the middlegame. Saying a6 doesn't solve the problem is a bit silly unless you suggest an alternative that does.

your're right. a6 isn't an ideal move really, but it is the best of a bad situation. I kinda understand that now

AngeloPardi

Seing your rating, rather than trying to understand the Ruy Lopez, you should focus on general opening principles and play the italian game (with Bc4) as white.

Well, actually I've looked at a few of your game, and you should focus on not hanging pieces and tactics too.

kindaspongey

Perhaps it would be helpful to look at Starting Out: Ruy Lopez by IM John Shaw (2003)

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627024240/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen53.pdf

and/or The Ruy Lopez: Move by Move by Neil McDonald (2011).

https://web.archive.org/web/20140627022042/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/hansen153.pdf

Don't feel too bad if the value of this or that move does not seem immediately obvious. If I remember correctly, Steinitz, at one time, preferred 3 Bc4 over 3 Bb5, and Lasker, at one time, preferred 3 ... Nf6 over 3 ... a6.

jonnin
JoEvJohn wrote:

But i wish there were some more studied opening, because i don't know whether some moves i am making are great moves against anyone, or maybe my opponent is kind of unskilled and the move works well because of my opponents lack of skill

I am not usually a huge fan of playing against a high end computer program, but openings are the one place where it makes sense.   Download a strong computer game, set up the opening you want, and experiment.  If you mess up, the computer will show you exactly why it did not work.  Don't play past about move 15-20, just stop there.   The better programs will tell you what variation you are on as you "discover" moves to try.   Computers are also good for learning your endgames  ... whether its tellign you that you have a mate in 23 moves or punishing you when you mess up your pawn moves,  its a constant strong opponent for these types of studies.

Sqod
JoEvJohn wrote:
your're right. a6 isn't an ideal move really, but it is the best of a bad situation.

Here's a historical account of how and why 3...a6 became popular...

----------

(p. 10)

      A Little Strategy, A Little History

 

   The Exchange Variation is not particularly complex

from a strategic point of view. But to start out, it's worth

comparing it with the main line of the Lopez.

 

   With the moves 1 e4, e5 2 Nf3, Nc6 3 Bb5 White

makes an indirect threat to the e-pawn. He knows that

even if he had a free move he could not win a pawn di-

rectly (3... "pass" 4 Bxc6, dxc6 5 Nxe5, Qd4!). But he real-

izes that at some point he will have protected his own e-

pawn and at that point the threat of Bxc6 followed by

Nxe5 will become very real.

 

   In the early days of the Ruy Lopez, Black tried a

variety of third moves, but had some difficulty dealing

with this indirect threat to his center pawn. As soon as

White defended his own pawn with d2-d3 or Nc3, they be-

gan to flounder. Even some of the best players in the

world would meed 1 e4, e5 2 Nf3, Nc6 3 Bb5, Nf6 4 d3, for

example, with 4...Bd6?. That move does meet the 5 Bxc6

threat--but delays his development horribly.

 

   Enter Paul Morphy. In his celebrated match with

Adolph Anderssen in 1858, Morphy popularized the move

3...a6 as a means of dealing with the threat to the e-pawn.

The move had been tried in the previous decade by players

who didn't understand it and who met 4 Ba4 with 4...b5,

thereby driving the bishop from one good diagonal to a

better one--weakening the Black position in the process

and getting nothing in return.

 

   But Morphy had a better idea. After Anderssen re-

sponded to his 3...a6 with 4 Ba4, Morphy continued 4...Nf6!

5 d3, Bc5 (the pawn is still safe because 6 Bxc6, dxc6 7

Nxe5, Qd4 threatens mate as well as the knight). Anderssen

appreciated this last point and replied 6 c3, reviving the

threat of Bxc6.

(p. 11)

   But Morphy illustrated the usefulness of his third

move by now inserting 6...b5!. He then castles quickly and

can even play ...d7-d5, after which Morphy had solved his

more serious opening problem. (After two unsatisfactory

Lopezes, Anderssen switched to 1 a3!? for the rest of their

match.) And as a result of the American's success, the

"Morphy Defense" became the basis of the main Lopez

lines, which to this day are characterized by 1 e4, e5 2

Nf3, Nc6 3 Bb5, a6 4 Ba4, Nf6 5 O-O, Be7 and if 6 Re1 (or

6 d3, 6 Nc3, etc), then 6...b5!.

 

Soltis, Andrew. 1992. Winning with the Ruy Lopez Exchange Variation. Dallas, Texas: Chess Digest, Inc.

kindaspongey

Sqod wrote:

"... Here's a historical account of how and why 3...a6 became popular...

----------

(p. 10)

      A Little Strategy, A Little History

 

   ... as a result of the American's success, the

'Morphy Defense' became the basis of the main Lopez

lines, which to this day are characterized by 1 e4, e5 2

Nf3, Nc6 3 Bb5, a6 4 Ba4, Nf6 5 O-O, Be7 and if 6 Re1 (or

6 d3, 6 Nc3, etc), then 6...b5!.

 

Soltis, Andrew. 1992. Winning with the Ruy Lopez Exchange Variation. Dallas, Texas: Chess Digest, Inc."

Just to try to make sure that there is no misunderstanding, post-Morphy, there was still a lot of advocacy of alternatives to 3 ... a6. In his 1889 match against Chigorin, Steinitz used 3 ... d6, and, in 1908, Lasker used 3 ... Nf6 against Tarrasch.

Master_Yoba

I knew it.

DrFrank124c

I was told by a chess coach that the the reason that the Ruy Lopez is played so often is because it provides mobility to white's pieces. I, personally, prefer to play the French Defense rather than become involved in all the complex variations available in the Ruy. The time taken to study these variations can better be spent studying tactics rather than openings. Beginning and intermediate playes should not study openings if they want to improve their ratings, they should be studying tactics. 

kindaspongey

"If you want to play chess competitively, then you must develop an opening repertoire." - GM Patrick Wolff (1997)