Is there a way to punish 1. d4 c6?

  • #1

    Because if not, c6 seems like a pretty viable response to d4 transposing into either a Caro-kann or Slav, both of which are very solid for black.

  • #2

    No, there isn't something special. White may try playing either a London system proper, or 2.Nf3 followed by Bf4, e3 and c4, since a QGD formation  with ...c6 is slightly passive against this setup. But even like that, it's nothing important.

    Still, I fail to see WHY Black should start with 1...c6 instead of the natural 1...d5. I can't think of a way to gain something.

  • #3
    pfren wrote:

    Still, I fail to see WHY Black should start with 1...c6 instead of the natural 1...d5. I can't think of a way to gain something.

    Maybe they love the Caro-kann so much that they play c6 in the vague hope that their opponent will play 2. e4. Other than that yeah, kind of pointless lol.

    EDIT: Thanks for the informative reply, forgot to add that

  • #4

    Two things I would NOT do are: 

    Play e4 and let them transpose into a Caro, or

    Play c4 and let them transpose into a Slav. 

    I would play Nf3 probably, and go for an active QGD with Bf4 as pfren said. 

  • #5

    2 d5! heh heh

  • #6

    Pfren, the main reason 1.d4 c6 is played is psychological. Some players who have a Wade system and the Slav in their repertoire may play this way. Another reason is to offer white to play the Caro-Kann, which many 1.d4 players do not care for.

    But I agree, 1.d4 d5 is generally more flexible than 1...c6. I play the Slav and prefer to reach it via 1...d5.

  • #7

    What possible benefit is 1 ...c6?  It is a committal move which practically forces Black to enter a Slave - or else attempt some hybrid sort of defense with 2 ...d6, but even here ...c6 is committing too soon, better to delay that move if to play it at all.

    No White 1 d4 player is going to enter the Caro-Kann, especially after Black begs for it.  So it is White who now has more options, whether to enter the Slav directly, or try some London or Colle set-up where ...c6 is relatively useless.

    If White is so fragile of mind that 1 ...c6 has a psychological effect on him, better to just walk behind him and say "Boo!" and then play 1 ...d5.

  • #8

    Estragon - what possible benefit is 1.d4 e6? (apart from the French/Dutch player who doesn't play the Leningrad and wants to avoid anti-Dutch systems) In this case White benefits significantly from the added choice of 2.e4! which leads to a favorable version of the French Defense (as opposed to 1.e4 e6 2.d3 or some weaker move).

    All trolling aside, though, I don't think anything is wrong with 1...c6 except that it does limit Black's options in dealing with London-type setups. It might be slightly better against Trompowsky players!

    And according to my database White actually goes for the Caro-Kann a healthy 12.4% of the time after 1...c6. 2.c4 is by far the most common move followed by 2.Nf3 and then 2.e4. While after 1...e6, the comparatively more attractive 2.e4 is only played 8.4% of the time (albeit with a much higher number of games) and naturally, White outperforms his rating by more when playing 2.e4 than any other popular move after 1...e6.

    Apparently 1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 is another idea, but why bother analyzing it when 2.e4 is so strong? If you can put two pawns next to each other in the center of the board, even beginners are taught that this is good!

    So I propose meeting 1...c6 and 1...e6 with 2.e4 grabbing the center.

    Although I would probably play 1.d4 c6 2.c4 because the Slav Exchange is easier to win with than any line I've discovered in the Caro-Kann at my level, while 1.d4 e6 2.e4 would give me a big advantage against anyone under 2100.

  • #9
    Razdomillie wrote:

    Because if not, c6 seems like a pretty viable response to d4 transposing into either a Caro-kann or Slav, both of which are very solid for black.

    White still has his options open to play D4 and either is favorite slav and semi slav openings or He can play E4 and the Carro-Kann

  • #10
    Estragon wrote:

    If White is so fragile of mind that 1 ...c6 has a psychological effect on him, better to just walk behind him and say "Boo!" and then play 1 ...d5.

    Excellent. LaughingLaughing

  • #11

    im a 1.d4 player and i relativly like the caro thank you.

  • #12

    The only difference between the normal Slav and 1. .. c6 is the possibility for black to play 2. c4 e5. Black wins back the pawn with Qa5+, but the resulting position has only the purpose to confuse white.

  • #13
    Razdomillie wrote:
    pfren wrote:

    Still, I fail to see WHY Black should start with 1...c6 instead of the natural 1...d5. I can't think of a way to gain something.

    Maybe they love the Caro-kann so much that they play c6 in the vague hope that their opponent will play 2. e4. Other than that yeah, kind of pointless lol.

    EDIT: Thanks for the informative reply, forgot to add that

    It can be considered a trick. I've often played c6 in blitz in the past, and my opponent out-thinks himself and plays 2.e4, banking on maybe I wasn't prepared for the Caro-Kann, when actually it is my most studied opening in all of chess.

    Lately I take a pass on tricks like that and just play the Nimzo-QID complex against d4.

  • #14

    I like to play 1. d4 c6 I'm surprised it doesn't have it's own opening name. It lets white know that I am defenitely going to play slav if he thinks about Queens Gambit. White usually rethinks his opening. If white either accepts slav or caro-kann defence, I play them gladly. If white does do something else, a dutch defence isn't hindered especcialy against the well known London system. 

  • #15

    Jburkhart, 1.e4 c6 is known as the Caro-Kann. It's kinda well known. The second game of the World Championship that just finished was a Caro-Kann.

  • #16

    I think he meant 1. d4 c6.

  • #17
    Otomun wrote:

    I think he meant 1. d4 c6.

    yep this thread is about d4 c6 and that's what I meant. 

  • #18

    Is there a way to punish 1. d4 c6?

    13 months ago · Quote · #1

    Razdomillie

    Because if not, c6 seems like a pretty viable response to d4 transposing into either a Caro-kann or Slav, both of which are very solid for black.

    ___________________________________________________________________________________

    Like, Don Quixote, "...you are tilting at wind mills...". In other words, there is no way for White to refute

    the move sequence 1.d4 c6. It is good that you question everything.

  • #19
    MartinJaeggi wrote:

    The only difference between the normal Slav and 1. .. c6 is the possibility for black to play 2. c4 e5. Black wins back the pawn with Qa5+, but the resulting position has only the purpose to confuse white.

    Not entirely true. White can still play a queen pawn opening and avoid the QG, where 1...c6 is less meaningful without 2.c4.

  • #20
    pfren wrote:

    No, there isn't something special. White may try playing either a London system proper, or 2.Nf3 followed by Bf4, e3 and c4, since a QGD formation  with ...c6 is slightly passive against this setup. But even like that, it's nothing important.

    Still, I fail to see WHY Black should start with 1...c6 instead of the natural 1...d5. I can't think of a way to gain something.

    That's what I do against the King's Indian but with h3 thrown in to avoid Bg4 Cool

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