Italian Game vs Ruy Lopez

Chess.com:

chess365.com:

So as you can see, there's really not much in it (even at Master level).

Personally, I play 2. f4 about five from six and 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 for the remainder. My reasons are simple, I don't play chess to manoeuvre for 25 moves to win a square or gain some minor concession. I like to smash holes in the opposition or die trying. I am completely unabashed by short losses and enjoy the extra time at the bar or watching my club-mates sweating over tight games.

Where I come from your first diagramed moves are not from the Italian game, but from the "two knights defense". I think, if my memory serves me well, your line leads to something called the "Max lange attack"

Yes, I know that after 3... Nf6 we have the Two knights defence. If you are going to play Italian as white you also have to be prepared to meet the Two knights. I chose Nf6 as main line because I wanted to compare the position after 3. Bc4 to the Ruy Lopez where I believe Nf6 makes more sense than Bc5. I have used the Italian as a general name to white's setup arising after 3. Bc4. I know that this is not ideal so if you have better idea how to call this let me know.

As far as I know the infamous Max Lange attack arises (for example) after 3... Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. 0-0 (instead of 5. e5 - the move in my previous post) Bc5 6. e5 d5! 7.exf6. Max Lange can arise after several different move orders but I also think that black can always avoid it altogether if she so chooses. For example, in the above line 5... Nxe4 looks for me to be simpler equalising try.

The Italian Game is reached after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4. One of the oldest known openings, White immediately puts pressure on f7, Black's weakest square. Over the centuries, both sides have found several different ways to play this opening.

This should help.  

I completley disagree, black can still play 3...f5, top Gm's have agreed that there are just too many ruy lines.

You have to play the sicillian if you want the ruy or the scotch, but the scotch is simpler.

#27 he can certainly take and that would be the Open Spanish, a decent Defense for Black but White will get his pawn back, O-O is the best move. You would have known this by just watching an introductory video on the Ruy Lopez or by just knowing minimal theory btw

#8
"In the italian though, white can't play d4 without sacrificing a pawn."
++ Yes, the possible d4 is the reason why the Ruy Lopez is preferred over the Italian.
Both are played at top level, but Ruy Lopez more.

I think Italian is more positional than the Ruy Lopez .
Ruy Lopez can be very aggressive 

Most people who complain that the Ruy Lopez Bishop must "lose time by retreating" talk as if 3. ... a6 was a developing move.

It isn't. No time is lost if your opponent is playing moves like a6.

Other than that... the Spanish Bishop can be grotesquely powerful in the Ruy Lopez, especially in conjunction with d2-d4.

Example:

nice line.

d3 simply isnt a good choice in that position. you play c3 or Re1 

6. d3 is fully playable in that position. Not earth-shaking, perhaps, but it's a line.

its super passive. c3 or Re1 are easily more active as whites goal is to play d4, and break the centre at an opportune time

Perhaps you mean that it LOOKS super-passive. I'm not really big on evaluating moves by their cosmetic aspects.

I've met people who thing the French Defense is passive! The French Defense... one of the most strategically ambitious options available to Black in the opening!

What about the Sicilian Najdorf? Would you say Black's 5. ... a6 move is passive or aggressive?

c3 and Re1 are more ambitious.

So I see what you mean with your other comments talking about how the retreating moves make it seem passive, but understand that a backwards move is not inherently passive. For one, a6 and b5 create weaknesses on the queenside for Black, where White can reopen play at his leisure with a4. Secondly, it isn't a loss of tempo since Black is playing two pawn moves to induce these two bishop moves. Lastly, the bishop is on the same diagonal as in the Italian, yet it is less easily assailable on b3 than c4, so I would argue that this positioning ends up better for White. 

You also seem to have missed an idea in the opening that makes it quite different than the Italian- in your example line you played for the Ruy, you played d3 to defend the e4 pawn. In fact, in theory here and in many other lines you don't defend this pawn at all, arguing that taking it and half opening the e file is often worse for Black. If you do play d3, then the Ruy is likely no better than the Italian, but the point of the Ruy is often to play c3 and d4 (Bc5 actually just makes it a target of this expansion so it is less frequently played than Be7), and defend the e4 pawn instead with Re1 at some point. Traditional lines go as follows:

Note that Black can take the pawn on move 5, which is a real variation with it's own theory (that I don't know near as much about tbf). The only common line where White plays d3 I believe is a Bg4 sideline. Here d4 would be too destabilizing but Black's bishop becomes a target for a knight maneuver common in the Ruy, Nb1, d2, f1, g3.

Hope this helps!

This is what I was mostly going for, with those two exact lines being the most common ones that happen.

Yes! So taking there is a line, called the Open Ruy Lopez, but the tradeoff for White is that often times jumping to take the pawn can lead to problems on the e file as the king is still in the middle, so d4 to undermine the last pawn blocking the file can be dangerous. Lets say Black takes the d4 pawn, a particularly bad move just used to illustrate the threats, then we get something like this:

Black is already going to be losing material here, and while there are theoretical lines besides exd4 which are very viable at the high level, not taking the e pawn to begin with often allows Black to be more ambitious as he doesn't have to worry about these threats. My other comment shows some lines in the closed Ruy Lopez that are more frequently seen- typically Black will often find his counterplay in lines with d4 by striking in the center with c5, say Na5 followed by c5 for example. 

How’d you even find this forum?