KID against everything?

Hi all,

as a Club Player I'd like to expand my choice of preferred opening (with Black this time), to include the King's Indian Defense.

I'd like to ask if the KID can be more or less safely used against any white openings (e4, d4 and c4) or if there are some no-no conditions, against which the KID is absolutely to be avoided.

Thanks in advance.

AG

There is no King's Indian against 1. e4, only Pirc and Moderns. After 1. c4 lots of players just play d3, not d4, with typical english positions (g3 Bg2 then a3 Rb1 b4) : even if you play the king's indian setup with f5, what you get is a reversed Closed Sicilian. The concepts of the King's Indian only work (somewhat) with d4 and c4 (and usually e4 as well) played by White.

Also the King's Indian is never safe. Get ready to swindle your way out of bad positions.

If it wasn't for Club level players playing the KID (& I'm a club level player) I'd have no ELO points !

IMO... "If" there is an opening that displayed WHY NOT TO play "XYZ" opening as a beginner.... The KID is it.

Many thanks for having shared your insights

Trying to play a single "one system vs. everything" setup is a surefire way to limit your learning and reduce your overall potential as a player.

Sure, it seems appealing from a practical standpoint ("I can just do the same thing every single game!"). But it reduces your exposure to other structures, which means you won't know how to play anything different.

If you want to grow and strengthen as a player, you should try to have more than one defensive stance in your repertoire. This means having one approach against d4/c4 (the KID is perfect for this, if that's the defense you enjoy). But also having a completely different stance against 1.e4.

You could play the Pirc or Modern against 1.e4, as it involves a similar structure and approach (kingside fianchetto, pawn on d6, looking for an ...e5 pawn break) ... but my personal recommendation would be to play an e4 defense that is quite different in structure and feel.

Try 1...e5. Or the French. Or the Caro-Kann. Or the Sicilian.

Doing so will force you to stretch out of your comfort zone, and it will help you learn how to handle different structures - which will make you a stronger player in the long run.

Just my two cents - take them or leave them, it's your call.

Hi @MaetsNori, thanks to you as well for sharing your opinion on the matter!

A club player can play a KID formation against almost anything. Against 1 e4, it is called the Pirc or Modern.

And you can also play the KID Reversed for White.

this may not be the engine’s choice for an opening repertoire but it is fine for a club player. And one of the benefits is that ideas from one game may apply to others.

Then it won't be a King's Indian, it will be a Pirc or a Modern or Benoni or a Double Fianchetto english or whatever else it is, not a King's Indian.

KID is so much more beginner friendly than the likes of the modern benoni

The Kings Indian Defense is by no means beginner friendly at all!

That's not what I argued.

I disagree with Thrillerfan.

I believe the KID is very beginner friendly because most Beginners playing 1.d4 are not playing the most challenging stuff.

Most of them are playing a London System of sorts and KID is very good counter to the London as it fights for Dark Squares similar to the London.

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Also, I have technically already done what the OP is suggesting.

I use to play the KID against everything when I was a beginner.

I learned the hard way why the KID doesn’t work vs. certain things and I found improvements as well.

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The KID is mainly used against 1.d4.

You will play it the most vs. that move.

Against 1.c4, I recommend 1…e5.

Black position will be more like a Closed Sicilian with the Black pieces, but it still has some KID feel.

Against 1.e4, The lines which feel sort of similar to the KID are:

- Sicilian Dragon

- Philidor Defense Exchanges Variation with g6

- Modern Defense

However, I am not going to recommend those lines because they are very tough to play as a Beginner. They are more Intermediate level

- The Sicilian Dragon is very tactical which gives the same attacking feelings as the KID, but you really need very good Tactical Puzzle score to play it super well.

- The Philidor with g6 feels more like the Exchange KID which some players love to play.

The only downside is the position can be a little slow to castle and your opponents can try to rush an attack on you which can feel uncomfortable if you don’t have high resistance score.

- The Modern Defense is very good. The Modern defense is probably the closed defense in 1.e4 which feels like the KID, but to play it well requires a high flexibility score.

Against certain moves by white you often want to transpose the Modern Defense into Hippopotamus Defense which is a completely different line entirely.

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Hopefully, you can see why I think the above lines are just to difficult for a beginner to play.

Instead of playing the above lines, I recommend playing a few different lines.

I am going to recommend 3 different options

- The Normal Philidor Defense with out g6

It’s more simple and your castle fast.

- The French Defense

It can stop a lot of Bc4 players

- The Caro Kan Defense

This is a different way to counter the Bc4 players.

These 3 lines are not similar to the KID at all, but they are very easy to play and they can help you counter some of the beginner lines rival players will play.

I'm grateful to all those who have, or actually are, providing insights.

To give a better more context. I'm a rough 1500 ELO FIDE club player. With white I play almost exclusively the London, and I'm beginning now playing the Stonewall attack, now and then.

As Black, I almost always play the hyper-modern 1...b6 (NOT just the Owen defense, but the hyper-modern setup, which can be played against both e4 and d4, besides c4). I also play the Hippo, sometimes. I've tried the French many years ago, but didn't like it too much, so I dropped it.

Compadre_J I have to say once again how those are not the King's Indian Defence at all.

You keep saying about the kid "feel" - it's a kingside fianchetto.

Is there any opening involving a kingside fianchetto that you say doesn't have a king's indian defence "feel" to it?

A KID setup has to involve d6, kingside fianchetto and opponent has played d4 and c4, nothing else is a KID.

So why are you claiming it has something to do with a KID, why not just say a kingside fianchetto. Nothing to do with specifically KID.

Not a kingside fianchetto anymore than you can say a Zaitsev is actually a queen's indian or has a "queen's indian feel" and saying you're playing a queen's indian like defence.

For someone who wants to play the actual King's Indian yes there is a fair bit of theory you have to know, unlike for example the Nimzo or Queen's Indian where general principles could keep you going for a while in the King's Indian there are various white attacks you have to be prepared for or you'll get blown off the board by reasonably competent opponents.

None of this makes any sense, we have never talked outside of exchanges here. Either you're hallucinating or are an exceptionally poor troll. Either way keep me and others out of your filthy mouth.

I think beginners can certainly play the KID.

when I work with students on openings, I emphasize themes rather than specific sequences of moves. In the KID, there are several major themes:

control of the central dark squares and the a1-h8 diagonal;

advancing f5 and attacking on the kingside if the center becomes closed with a black pawn on e5;

advancing b5 and attacking on the queenside if the center becomes closed with a black pawn on c5 (a Benoni formation).

Sure, there are many variations that white can play. And a master can have lines memorized that fill books. But what a beginner needs is to understand how to develop the pieces so they work together and some basic middlegame plans.

i once had a student who was a retired physicist. He had played chess his whole life but he had never read a chess book or played in a tournament. We worked for several months on the KID formation, for both white and black. In his first USCF tournament, he earned a performance rating of 1900.

People have already told the OP it’s impossible to play the KID against everything.

Post #2 on this thread told the OP the KID is a unique position which requires specific moves.

However, It doesn’t mean their isn’t other openings in chess which offer similar feelings + similar types of positions.

The Classical KID is a very Closed Position with pawns locked in the center or non-mobile which often requires players to build up a pawn storm on the Flanks which can get very Tactical/Fun.

The Feeling of building up your attack combined with your ability to slow down/parry your opponents attack creates a sense of wanting to beat your opponent really bad.

Than when you finally Checkmate your Opponent, you feel as if your King/Queen of the World.

You feel like Zeus - The Ancient Greek God

You brought the Lighting, the Thunder, and the Boom!

In that moment, you feel like the Master of the Universe because you defeated your opponent in the Ultimate Battle of Wits.

And that feeling causes many to have an obsession with chess as they strive to relive that feeling over and over again.

As you get stronger in chess, it also becomes increasingly more difficult to reach that feeling.

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So you see - It’s true that it isn’t possible to play the KID against everything.

But the reason a person might chose to play the KID vs. a different opening to begin with can be due to the emotional feeling they get from playing the KID.

And those feelings can often be present in other opening as the feelings are not exclusive to KID.

The KID feelings are very unique to that style of play which rules out a lot of openings.

The right conditions needed to replicate the KID feelings involves a mostly Closed position.

Or a non-mobile center.

The position also needs pawn storms with both players trying to attack each other as well as having to parry each other’s moves.

If the Opponent doesn’t fight back, The feeling isn’t the same.

Their has to be a struggle between both sides in order to create a sense of wanting.

The KID feelings are in my opinion very similar to a Hunters feeling.

The difference between hunting a Deer or Lion is extremely different.

It raises the stacks of the situation making the victory even that much more sweeter.

Than you have to finish off the game in a complicated, messy, and spectacular checkmate

This is the essence of the KID.

Now, can you name a different opening with similar essence?

What about the Sicilian Dragon?

Is the center mostly closed or non-mobile in Sicilian Dragon?

Does pawn storms happen on the flanks?

Is their a Struggle were you have to attack, but also might have to parry the enemy?

Does the game end in a glorious Tactical Victory?

I think the answer is Yes to all of the above which means the KID is still alive even in 1.e4.

Its just in disguise with different chess name!

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And to answer your question does every Kingside Fianchetto line feel like the KID.

The answer is No - Some don’t which is why I didn’t mention them.

For Example:

Lets Talk about the Gruenfeld.

Is their a Locked or Non-Mobile pawn center?

Does pawn storms happen on the Flanks?

Well, when you think about it, The answer is pretty much No.

White ends up with Massive Pawn center which is mobile and they often do move it.

Their isn’t any real pawn storms on the Flanks because the main battle is mostly in the Center.

KID is more of a King Hunting line.

Gruenfeld is more of a Center Hunting line.

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Some lines even meet the some criteria as the KID, but are not completely the same.

The French Defense is a good example.

- Is the center locked or non-mobile in French?

If White plays Advanced Variation, we would say Yes

- Does pawn storms happen on Flanks?

We would say Yes again.

- Is their a struggle which causes both sides having to parry other side?

Sure, we can say Yes again

- Does game end in a Glorious Tactical Checkmate?

No - Not for Black because they are attacking the area of the board where the White King isn’t often castled.

White, on other hand, would be attacking on side of enemy King so that line could be seen as being similar as KID with the White pieces.

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However, we are talking about the Black pieces here and so the French Defense doesn’t give us the same satisfaction which is really sad.

The French Defense is still a good beginner line, though.

A lot of beginners like playing Bc4 stuff and so it can counter that stuff nicely.

The Classical KID is a very Closed Position with pawns locked in the center or non-mobile which often requires players to build up a pawn storm on the Flanks which can get very Tactical/Fun.

Agree. Noone's playing the KID hoping to bust out their earth-shattering Exchange Variation.

In that moment, you feel like the Master of the Universe because you defeated your opponent in the Ultimate Battle of Wits.

Let's not go over the top. Actually the King's Indian has a heavy theoretical aspect to it and can all fall apart for either side at any moment based on one mistake, so seems slightly less reliable for showing skill than incrementally improving your position for 40 moves in something like the ruy lopez.

As you get stronger in chess, it also becomes increasingly more difficult to reach that feeling.

I don't believe this.

The right conditions needed to replicate the KID feelings involves a mostly Closed position.

Right, and the Sicilian is open, that's why it's called the open sicilian. See this is the big issue, if the centre was always blocked then it would make a lot of sense that they would be quite similar to the King's Indian Defence. But in that case the people naming them would likely have just called them all the King's Indian defence.

The position also needs pawn storms with both players trying to attack each other as well as having to parry each other’s moves.

White's only "pawn storm" in the classical form of the king's indian is just trying to force open a queenside file while black acts like a hooligan on the kingside, I don't think I'd call his various attempts to chuck the a or b pawns forward pawn storms either really.

Now, can you name a different opening with similar essence?

What about the Sicilian Dragon?

Is the center mostly closed or non-mobile in Sicilian Dragon?

Does pawn storms happen on the flanks?

Is their a Struggle were you have to attack, but also might have to parry the enemy?

Does the game end in a glorious Tactical Victory?

I think the answer is Yes to all of the above which means the KID is still alive even in 1.e4.

Yeah, I'm not sure where/how you're getting this from. There are two semi-open files and very mobile pawns in the dragon. The Sicilian is even called the Open Sicilian - at best it's a Semi-Open game when using the open/closed/semi-open/semi-closed categorization.

The things KID and the Dragon have in common is they're both highly tactical, they involve early attacks on kings - though the Dragon involves attacks on both kings while white isn't attacking the king in the opening of the KID, and they involve a kingside fianchetto for black. And black is attacking on the queenside against the Yugoslav, also white's plans are completely different engaging in pawn storms on the kingside or if he castles on the kingside he's using the e and f pawns trying to attack, not the a, b and c pawns like in the king's indian.

Its just in disguise with different chess name!

Nonsense.

Lets Talk about the Gruenfeld.

Is their a Locked or Non-Mobile pawn center?

Does pawn storms happen on the Flanks?

Well, when you think about it, The answer is pretty much No.

White ends up with Massive Pawn center which is mobile and they often do move it.

Their isn’t any real pawn storms on the Flanks because the main battle is mostly in the Center.

KID is more of a King Hunting line.

Gruenfeld is more of a Center Hunting line.

True. But did you know the Grunfeld and King's Indian used to all be under the same opening in the past? So they originally had those openings lumped together while the Dragon and Pirc and Benoni were all different to them.

White, on other hand, would be attacking on side of enemy King so that line could be seen as being similar as KID with the White pieces.

Yes, playing like a King's Indian as white is a way for white to try to overcome the blocked position of some French openings.

OK, tell me all the important ideas about the classical Kings Indian.

As far as Black's pieces, in the Mar Del Plata (basically the main line), what is Black's most important piece? What piece will Black gladly sacrifice just to preserve said piece? What is Black's worst minor piece? (Just about every defense has a problem piece - For the Closed Ruy, Chigorin Variation, it's the Queen's Knight, and for the French, it's the Queen's Bishop, or light-squared bishop.) Which side do most endgames tend to favor in Classical KID Mar Del Plata games?

The Kings Indian is not simple at all. The fact that you can regurgitate the first 5 moves (Nf6, g6, Bg7, d6, O-O doesn't mean jack!

@Post #20

The White Main line against the Sicilian Dragon is the Yugoslav Attack.

It is a Flank Pawn storm line.

White doesn’t really play in the center, unless Black initiates it on move 9.

However, White can try to avoid it by playing Bc4