bananapyjama wrote:
that's true Reb! The belly of the bell shaped curve is populated densely by lip flappers.
You spend more time making useless posts and changing your banana-sucking avi than most.
Learning 1.e4 e5 thoroughly
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tmkroll wrote:
Don't trust thechesswebsite without checking against other sources. The coverage of the King's Gambit suggests White should choose a losing continuation with Nxf7 and Qgx4 etc. http://www.thechesswebsite.com/kings-gambit/ first video.
Thanks. I'll check it out.
aggressivesociopath wrote:
It took me years to play the Closed Spanish with any sort of understanding. I used play 1. e4 e5!, The Ruy Lopez: a Guide for Black, and Vol. 2 of opening for White according to Anand. Other books I used include Understanding the Spanish (for width not depth), Archangel and New Archangel, The Marshall attack by Lalic and vol. 1 of opening for White according to Anand. I also picked up the two Marin books.
Happy hunting! You have a lot of work ahead of you.
Indeed. Thanks for the suggestions.
jlconn wrote:
@Chicken_Monster: I don't know what's up with your overly defensive emotional posture, but I neither intended nor produced a "diatribe". I neither attacked nor criticized you. If my warning against learning things incompletely is what got your hackles up, well, 1) I'm just warning against my own mistakes, and 2) I guess it must have hit pretty close to home.
I have stopped advising you to forget about openings, because it's become clear that the opening is your real interest right now, no matter what. Who knows, maybe you just want to be an openings theoretician.
So I answered the question that I thought you were asking - the one you specifically used as the title of this forum topic. I answered this one because finally you got back around to the first bit of advice I - among many others - gave you (to learn the open games). I know where to begin when it comes to thoroughly learning the open games, and I happen to love the open games, so I responded to your question.
I was working on the premise that your question was:
"How can I thoroughly learn 1.e4 e5?" Then there was additional discussion about wanting both a repertoire and understanding (as if you could have the former without the latter), and then you ask which books are good, sort of presuming that the answer to your original question lies in books.
I answered the question posed by the forum topic (book suggestion: Fine's IBtCO, then: hard work and experience - I forgot to mention to play over as many Morphy games as you can find). Is your question so unrelated to the forum topic that my response is thus so far from addressing it?
If I still have not responded to your question, then what was it?
Do you think that "having a repertoire" means "knowing specific variations by memory"? If so, then there are half a dozen books I can recommend for that purpose.
Did you really mean to ask for the best way to "gain familiarity with 1.e4 e5" rather than to "thoroughly learn 1.e4 e5"? If so, then Fine's IBtCO is all you need.
I can answer whatever question you meant to ask, if you make that clear. In fact, I thought I had - and I didn't do so with any criticism, much less attack, intended.
Well, basically I elaborated a bit on my request above here in response to XPLAYA's post. I would love to hear your recommendations for books on repertoires for 1..e4 e5 (Black and White sides) as well as books (which may be different than the repertoire books) for understanding the reasons behind the moves.
If I'm looking at a game between a couple GM's that begine 1.e4 e5, and should be able to understand it...or at least a good part of the beginning of the game...and I should be able to play lines like that...eventually. Sometimes it is a variation of the Ruy Lopez, sometimes it is something entirely different. Scotch, Marshall, Berlin, King's Gambit, various Spanish offshoots, Vienna, etc.
So maybe John Wastson's opening series? FCO? Some repertoire books? Looking over GM games? What did you have in mind, specifically?
TheGreatOogieBoogie wrote:
It may be expensive but what about Chessbase Opening Encyclopedia?
http://shop.chessbase.com/en/products/opening_encyclopedia_2014
I'd wait until the 2015 one comes out however. If that seems like too much then order the latest Chess Informant. Try ordering it with other materials (ECE volumes recommended, you'll need them eventually but work on Averbakh's Chess Endgames: Essential Knowledge first then Endgame Tactics by Van Perlo with the light green cover, and Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual next) to qualify for the free shipping, otherwise shipping rates are brutal.
OK, thanks.
A positive comment to make up for my negative one: I feel this video introduction/overview of the Scotch is very good for a free source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QLgVdlgJqA and I think these players may have done some of the other openings you're asking about if you search them out.
Chicken_Monster wrote:
TheGreatOogieBoogie wrote:
It may be expensive but what about Chessbase Opening Encyclopedia?
http://shop.chessbase.com/en/products/opening_encyclopedia_2014
I'd wait until the 2015 one comes out however. If that seems like too much then order the latest Chess Informant. Try ordering it with other materials (ECE volumes recommended, you'll need them eventually but work on Averbakh's Chess Endgames: Essential Knowledge first then Endgame Tactics by Van Perlo with the light green cover, and Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual next) to qualify for the free shipping, otherwise shipping rates are brutal.
OK, thanks.
A FREE way of building an opeing rep/database is to use ChessDB (free), and then download the weekly games from theweekinchess.com.
Feb 10, 2015
0
#49
Now you're getting even more specific by mentioning the Ruy Lopez - not so sure that most good players would say that's better for Black than the Italian, quite the opposite, actually, but then it's all the same anyway ... with best play, eventually Black gets equality no matter what.
I can pass on to you some good advice I received regarding learning the Spanish from Black's point of view ... first, learn the Steinitz Defense, 3...d6, just enough to see why it fails to hold the strong point and then what White has once e5 disappears. Learning Tarrasch vs Marco, Dresden 1892 and Capablanca vs Fonoroff, New York 1918 should suffice. That should give you a good idea of the far reaching effect of 3.Bb5. Then, choose one other defensive line without 3...a6 and one or two with 3...a6 to investigate. My choices were the "classical Berlin" (3...Nf6 4.O-O Bc5, or reverse Black's 3rd and fourth moves, when White commonly plays 4.c3), the plain old standard Chigorin Defense (3...a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 O-O 9.h3 Na5 10.Bc2 c5 11.d4 Qc7) and what I've seen referred to as the Moeller Variation (3...a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O b5 6.Bb3 Bc5). My results have been best with the ...Bc5 lines, but I attribute that mainly to the fact that I seem to only ever play the Black side of a Spanish against stronger players, and the Classical Berlin and Moeller, while not unorthodox, are a bit of a surprise usually, I guess. Of course, I've been DESTROYED in all lines.
Feb 10, 2015
0
#50
So with your last clarification, I strengthen my recommendation of both:
- Fine's Ideas Behind the Chess Openings
- the RHM Understanding the Open Games (Except Ruy Lopez).
Then, a well annotated collection of Morphy's games.
As for repertoire books - as in setting down the variations to be played by Black - Kaufman's two repertoire books are sufficient, but I also like Marin's and Emms's books.
FCO is maybe a little too simplistic for your purposes?
Personally, I've been disappointed by Watson's Mastering the Chess Openings series, specifically in his coverage of the open games, which is, to say the least, incredibly narrow and lacking depth in the most important places.
Most of these modern books are long on precision and short on explanation. Personally, I find that useless.
I still don't really understand your final aim with all of this openings investigation, but if it's in any way connected to any overall improvement, I suggest one other book if you can get your hands on it: How to Open a Chess Game. This is another RHM collaboration book, written by seven Grandmasters. Evans and Gligoric covered the basics, then Hort, Portisch, Petrosian, Larsen, and Keres wrote their own chapters concerning what they thought would be most valuable.
As far as openings references go, my favorite is one by Keene and Levy and again published by RHM, titled How to Play the Openings in Chess. Not columns and rows of variations, but kind of the same thing, with inline annotation.
Those last two books would be good for all of your opening investigations.
When it comes to understanding openings rather than memorizing the latest greatest theory, older - to a point - seems to be far better.
You'd probably get a lot out of Neil McDonald's Move by Move book on the Ruy Lopez. I think he's one of the best modern authors at explaining things for intermediate players.
for all you sarcastic wannabe grand master chess players out there who talk down on someone who is trying to learn the game, i do nothing but play chess.... i don't read books, i don't participate in forums until i started reading your posts, and i don't talk down to anyone....chess is my hobby.... i am rated in the high1300s and i would like to play one of you sarcastic,high-horse riding,nose-in-the-air wannabes in a game---you know who you are!!!!
OK, thanks all. What is RHM?
As for FCO, I have not looked at it but heard it is a nice intro. I have some books such as the Kaufman books and the Watson series...and some others.
Thinking about the following (mentioned by you folks) because it has been rewritten in AN -- has been on my to-do list for some time:
The Ideas Behind the Chess Openings: Algebraic Notation by Reuben Fine
So RHM Understanding the Open Games doe NOT include the Ruy Lopez.
What about books by Marin or Emms or anyone else that have been mentioned? What 1.e4 e5 specialty book DOES include the Ruy Lopez (the Cadillac of openings)?
It seems as if a lot of authors just skip the Ruy Lopez.
Feb 10, 2015
0
#56
I think Nigel davies 1.e4 e5 book includes the Ruy Lopez but most repertoirebooks on 1.e4 e5 have it in a book for itself because its one of the mainlines of chess and need alot of space
Feb 10, 2015
0
#57
Well, you could use some of the lines I send you Chicken. And I think Reb is right, you shouldnt start a new thread about openings every week, just concentrate on one. Cheers
Feb 11, 2015
0
#58
Chicken_Monster wrote:
Some of the titled players on this site said it is a must to learn the Ruy Lopez, Queen's Gambit etc. inside and out.
This is just responding to 1.e4 with e5. I'll be asking about the Caro-Kann in a month. Then the French. Center-counter....
I guess I could just learn part of 1.e4 e5. That's what you did to become a National Master I'm sure.
in a month? a few years would be better and it would really pay off. learning openings is a slow and steady process. dont worry if you like crazy attacking lines or more positional lines or whatever you like you will find it in 1.e4 e5 if you pick the right lines. 1.e4 e5 is famous for giving black many choices of weapons
Till_98 wrote:
Well, you could use some of the lines I send you Chicken. And I think Reb is right, you should start a new thread about openings every week, just concentrate on one. Cheers
I'll start a new thread as often as I want. If someone doesn't like it they are free to MOVE ON. I don't see Reb trolling XPLAYA, who has 87 threads going on openings and more coming each day. I enjoy his threads. If someone has nothing better to do than make snarky comments without giving advice, then they can get lost for all I care.
Some people are serious about studying chess and some are just serious about talking about studying chess ...
I'm serious about studying it. That's the reason for my question, which you have failed to attempt to address. Go away.
Apparently some people like to talk about nothing useful whatsoever, and get off on wasting time.