Minority attack in paulson sicilians?

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Ashvapathi

I have read that the general plan in most Sicilians is minority attack. I have some idea about minority attack in Carlsbad pawn structure. But I am a bit confused about how the minority attack is carried on in Sicilians. So, can someone please explain how minority attack is carried out in Sicilians like taimanov or Kan.

Ashvapathi

Yeah, it's sort of a pawn storm by lesser number of pawns against more number of pawns. 2 vs 3(Sicilian) or 3 vs 4 (carlsbad). The idea supposedly is to laden the opponent with a backward pawn on a semi-open file and then attack that pawn. I know only theory about this concept. I have never implemented this in a game. And I am wondering if someone will show me games where minority attack was successfully implemented in Sicilian games?

Ashvapathi

Hmm, I don't know actually. I wanted to know the same stuff.

Ashvapathi

Then...

nighteyes1234
Ashvapathi wrote:

Hmm, I don't know actually. I wanted to know the same stuff.

 

Have an example? Are you referring to white with a pawn on c4?

Ashvapathi

I don't know. I wanted to know the same stuff. I thought that if the pawn is on c4, then Sicilian is supposed to go into hedgehog setup and try for d5 pawn break. I think minority attack means running b&a pawns towards the other side when c4 has not been played. But I am not sure...

BonTheCat

I get the impression that minority attacks in the Sicilian aren't what one normally refers to when discussing the topic of a minority (i.e. against the Carlsbad structure as seen on the Black side of the Orthodox QGD and the White side of the Rubinstien/Exchange Variation in the Caro-Kann). White's pawn formation on the queenside typically stay on their original squares for a very long time.

I think they're simply referring to playing a6 and b5, putting the bishop on b7 and a knight on c5 on order to pressure on White's e4 pawn. But that's not a traditional 'minority attack', that's an expanded/extended queenside fianchetto.

Ashvapathi
BonTheCat wrote:

I get the impression that minority attacks in the Sicilian aren't what one normally refers to when discussing the topic of a minority (i.e. against the Carlsbad structure as seen on the Black side of the Orthodox QGD and the White side of the Rubinstien/Exchange Variation in the Caro-Kann). White's pawn formation on the queenside typically stay on their original squares for a very long time.

I think they're simply referring to playing a6 and b5, putting the bishop on b7 and a knight on c5 on order to pressure on White's e4 pawn. But that's not a traditional 'minority attack', that's an expanded/extended queenside fianchetto.

I don't know, I heard(don't remember where) that minority attack is the big plan of Sicilian. I somehow feel that it should be more that queen side fianchetto.

IMKeto
Ashvapathi wrote:

I have read that the general plan in most Sicilians is minority attack. I have some idea about minority attack in Carlsbad pawn structure. But I am a bit confused about how the minority attack is carried on in Sicilians. So, can someone please explain how minority attack is carried out in Sicilians like taimanov or Kan.

Black play:

...a6

...b5

Put a rook on c8

Ashvapathi
IMBacon wrote:
Ashvapathi wrote:

I have read that the general plan in most Sicilians is minority attack. I have some idea about minority attack in Carlsbad pawn structure. But I am a bit confused about how the minority attack is carried on in Sicilians. So, can someone please explain how minority attack is carried out in Sicilians like taimanov or Kan.

Black play:

...a6

...b5

Put a rook on c8

Thanks.😊 Then, will black run down b&a pawns up the board to break the pawn structure of white? 

IMKeto
Ashvapathi wrote:
IMBacon wrote:
Ashvapathi wrote:

I have read that the general plan in most Sicilians is minority attack. I have some idea about minority attack in Carlsbad pawn structure. But I am a bit confused about how the minority attack is carried on in Sicilians. So, can someone please explain how minority attack is carried out in Sicilians like taimanov or Kan.

Black play:

...a6

...b5

Put a rook on c8

Thanks.😊 Then, will black run down b&a pawns up the board to break the pawn structure of white? 

If you want to lose, sure...go ahead.  Ram those pawns down whites throat.  Considering the vast majority of whites pieces will be pointing to the kingside.  There is nothng going on on the queenside.   I think you're confusing a minority pawn attack, with playing on the queenside.  Blacks lack of space, along with the c-file just means while white is going to play on the kingside, black will play on the queenside.

"Ideally" in this type of position.  Black would like to play something along the lines of:

...b5-b4

Nbd7-b6-c4

...Bb7

...Qc7

...Rc8

The c2 pawn becomes a target. 

Now keep in mind, i DO NOT play this variation.  My <ahem> "analysis", is based on pawn structure, and piece placement.  I very well may be completely missing the boat on this, but this is what im seeing.  Im sure someone better could point out the correct/better idea/plan.

Ashvapathi

Thanks for that post. But I remember reading or hearing the word "minority attack" associated with Sicilian. I'll try find a reference. The term "Minority attack" generally refers to pawn storm, right?!

Ashvapathi

Okay, I found a reference: wiki page on pawn structures lists "minority attack" on queenside as the big plan for sicilian najdorf & scheveningen structures. In Sicilian maroczy structures, it says hedgehog d5 break.

IMKeto
Ashvapathi wrote:

Okay, I found a reference: wiki page on pawn structures lists "minority attack" on queenside as the big plan for sicilian najdorf & scheveningen structures. In Sicilian maroczy structures, it says hedgehog d5 break.

Well yea, ...d5 is a pawn break, but you dont  want to play that while the black king is still sitting in the middle of the board.  Opening lines of attack while not castled generally turns out BAD.  Thats why as a general rule you should complete your development (Opening Principles) before starting an attack.

Ashvapathi
IMBacon wrote:
Ashvapathi wrote:

Okay, I found a reference: wiki page on pawn structures lists "minority attack" on queenside as the big plan for sicilian najdorf & scheveningen structures. In Sicilian maroczy structures, it says hedgehog d5 break.

Well yea, ...d5 is a pawn break, but you dont  want to play that while the black king is still sitting in the middle of the board.  Opening lines of attack while not castled generally turns out BAD.  Thats why as a general rule you should complete your development (Opening Principles) before starting an attack.

Hmm, of course. But hedge hog-maroczy is played when white plays c4. d5 break is recommended when c4 is played. When c4 is not played, "minority attack on queenside" is being recommended. I am assuming it refers to b&a pawn storm. (after castling 😎)

MervynS

 I bought Hellsten's Play the Sicilian Kan, there aren't as many minority attacks started by black in the opening phases in the Kan from what I can tell, there is a lot more play in the center

BonTheCat

As I said above, when authors write about a minority attack in the Sicilian, they're not referring to what is commonly meant by that concept. That is to say, the a- and b-pawns marching down the board against a Carlsbad structure to swap off on c3 or c6 (with your d-pawn preventing the opponent's c4 or c5) , in order to leave the opponent with a backward pawn on that square which is then attacked by heavy pieces and/or exploited by plonking a knight on c5 or c4 and attacking the c-pawn from the side. As IMBacon points out, they probably (incorrectly from a point of terminology) refer to one or other of the standard Sicilian attacks on the queenside.

 

Ashvapathi

@BonTheCat

Hmm, seems difficult to believe that they are using the terminology incorrectly. Okay, let's approach it from another angle: what is the big plan of black in Paulsen Sicilians (when white has not play c4 and white has castled short)?

BonTheCat
Ashvapathi wrote:

@BonTheCat

Hmm, seems difficult to believe that they are using the terminology incorrectly. Okay, let's approach it from another angle: what is the big plan of black in Paulsen Sicilians (when white has not play c4 and white has castled short)?

Well, it wouldn't really be the first time someone did that. The concept of good vs bad bishop, is probably another case in point (a 'good' bishop can in fact be bad, and vice versa).

Black's normal plan in the Kan is typically Hedgehog structures, and trying to chip away at the White's centre by moves like b6-b5 and d6-d5. Seriously, whoever coined the phrase 'minority attack' for Sicilian structures means something different from what people normally mean when they talk about a minority attack. Quite simply, the pawn structure on the White side isn't there for Black to execute a minority attack.

OldPatzerMike

Michael Stean might have originated the use of the term "minority attack" in relation to the Sicilian. In his 1978 book "Simple Chess", he applies the term to any structure in which one side has a pawn majority in the center and a pawn minority on the Q side, where that side advances the pawn minority to create weaknesses in the other side's majority.

Regarding the Sicilian in particular, he says, "The whole idea of the Sicilian is for Black to trade his c Pawn for the d Pawn. White almost invariably obliges: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 (or d6 or e6 or g6) 3. d4 cxd4, when Black immediately arrives at a minority attack Pawn structure." (2002 Dover edition, page 91)

Until reading this chapter yesterday, I always thought of the minority attack only in relation to the Carlsbad structure. The more I think about it, though, the more sense it makes to consider it a strategic theme generally applicable in some other structures.