Ponziani Opening: Jaenisch, Vuković Gambit

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Avatar of TheoEkman

I'm a ponziani player, and a while ago I came across an interesting defence suggested by the computer. The defence goes like this:


1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 Nxe4 5.d5 Bc5

After taking some time with the computer my final thoughts were that the defence is only good at pro/computer-level, and that nobody at my skill group would be able to play such a sharp defence to an uncommon opening like the ponziani. But now recently my opponent played it against me and after some unclear and advanced play I lost the game. I want to start a discussion here about this defence. Is there any way of simplifying the game as white? Is it playable for black(/white?)? Has anybody else seen this defence being used?

Avatar of TrainerMeow

Seems like a really messy gambit, with good chances for both sides.

Avatar of TheoEkman

After spending a day evaluating this messy opening, I believe that I have come up with a line with white which is somewhat forcing and easy to memorize. It end up in positions which stockfish evaluates from 0.00 to +0.3. Most ponziani players tend to be more aggressive than me, I would rather want a questionable advantage than an absolute mess of a game. Here is the lines that I came up with, which I believe simplifies the position.

If anybody has any lines that I have missed for black I would like to hear them.

Avatar of TrainerMeow
TheoEkman wrote:

After spending a day evaluating this messy opening, I believe that I have come up with a line with white which is somewhat forcing and easy to memorize. It end up in positions which stockfish evaluates from 0.00 to +0.3. Most ponziani players tend to be more aggressive than me, I would rather want a questionable advantage than an absolute mess of a game. Here is the lines that I came up with, which I believe simplifies the position.

If anybody has any lines that I have missed for black I would like to hear them.

This is honestly not a forcing line at all. You need to analyze (and memorize) a lot more in order to make this work in a real game. For example:

10...O-O!? 11.Rg1 Qf6 Black keeps his knight on f2 in order to accelerate his attack.

12...Bf2 putting the bishop on a safe square.

14...e4 trying to open the e-file, at the cost of a pawn.

Avatar of TheoEkman
TrainerMeow skrev:

This is honestly not a forcing line at all. You need to analyze (and memorize) a lot more in order to make this work in a real game. For example:

10...O-O!? 11.Rg1 Qf6 Black keeps his knight on f2 in order to accelerate his attack.

12...Bf2 putting the bishop on a safe square.

14...e4 trying to open the e-file, at the cost of a pawn.

Thank you for your thoughts!

I think I should have been more clear on what my goal with this line were, to simplify and make the game less sharp. For that, I came up with the move 11. a4!?. I tried to edit my earlier comment but for some reason, it would not update.

10... O-O is defenetly another variation which needs to be considered, but this variation start before the move 11. a4 is played. Again, I should have been more clear what I was talking about.

I had not thought about 14... e4 however. But it does not look to difficult to deal with. Qxc5 exf3+ 16.  gxf3, and the e-file is open, but I still believe white is better because he has the bishop pair, more piece value (not counting pawns), and I dont see any direct way for black to use the open file to an advantage. I would not consider this to be a critical move.

Your move 12... Bf2 is the best alternative for black I think. The game do remain very sharp. Stockfish seems to want to transport the King to c2. The only problem is that black either has to loose a tempo moving the bishop back, or loose his knight on h1. I think white's best option is to continue to simplify the game, and if he can trade a some pieces, I would rather play white. But tbh I think the 12... Bf2 variation is black's best reply so I will have to look into that a bit more.

Avatar of pfren

Noone sane enough would like to play this as white. At least after 9.Rg1 0-0 10.cxb7 Bxb7 etc, white is under heavy pressure, but he is a couple of pieces up- while in your line, he has no material advantage to brag about.

The whole variation is not interesting for me- I don't play lame stuff like the Ponziani as white, and as Black there are a few easy to play lines, which also offer very good winning chances. Why should I enter this mess and memorize several moves ahead for an opening that I will probably meet twice, or three times during the next four decades?

The computer evaluation is not relevant. Why should I care if the computer evaluates the line as approx. equal, when it is obvious that white is in trouble because of his king's position, and has to play very accurately to avoid being smashed? Black's play in YOUR line (no 9.Rg1) is way easier, and I'm pretty sure proper analysis will show an advantage for Black.

For the record, my friend Nikos Ntirlis has included this very variation as a recommendation for Black in his book "Playing 1.e4 e5" (Quality Chess). He devotes two pages in it, bundled with decent computer-aided analysis.

I have told him that his choice is bad, although hardly relevant, because of the rarity of the Ponziani.

 

Black's best choice against the Ponziani should be this one, since it also works against the Goring gambit:

 

Avatar of notzmv

I like Nikos Ntirlis's recommendation and I have had a lot of fun playing this line, since it seems that most lower-rated Ponziani players don't really expect such a rare line and the play is natural enough to not be really memorization in my opinion. I must agree however that your suggestion is certainly more practical and simple.

Avatar of The_last_good_username
TheoEkman wrote:

After spending a day evaluating this messy opening, I believe that I have come up with a line with white which is somewhat forcing and easy to memorize. It end up in positions which stockfish evaluates from 0.00 to +0.3. Most ponziani players tend to be more aggressive than me, I would rather want a questionable advantage than an absolute mess of a game. Here is the lines that I came up with, which I believe simplifies the position.

If anybody has any lines that I have missed for black I would like to hear them.

10: Ng5 is better