Ponziani Opening

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #221


    Yes, I agree your 10. ...bxc6 is a better try [and the best  move in the position] 

    With 10. ... dxc6    Black is not doing well in my opinion.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #223


    Pacifique, The first line you gave me ended in 12. Nd2  Nd5 and after 

    13. 0-0-0 White had a definite advantage.

    Then pfren gave you a better line and the result was the machines gave White the normal opening move advantage but pfren thought it was objectively equal per his opinion [here I slightly disagree with phren--I think White does have the normal first move advantage.]

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #224


  • 4 years ago · Quote · #225


    Just out of curiousity.

    How much do you think the normal first move advantage is?

    And how much do you think the evaluation of a given position can vary when a machine looks just one half-move deeper? :)

    What I mean is. Can we actually put faith in the machines for this? I know ther evaluation is much better than my own, normally. But for making objective statements about a position?

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #226


    There are some lines that analysis engines have difficulty evaluating. If this were not trur, the Smith-Morra would have many refutations to it but yet there is not many real solid lines against it barring inaccurate or blundering play by White if I am not mistaken.

    Though I neither plat the Ponz or SMG, both are intersting lines to look into at least through the club level of play. I may do more reading on these as well. Thanks to Ponz for giving some new ideas for me to look into.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #228


    I think a lot of people are just tired, or ired, that a perfectly logical move like 3. c3 is thought of so lowly. I wouldn't consider myself a fanatic. But neither can I believe that c3 doesn't keep some sort of advantage. To me it seems that the basic idea should be sound. Black will have to give up something, or give you something, to prevent you from playing d4.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #229


    Pacifique, you conveniently forget what went on before. 

    First you claim to have a good line vs the Ponziani.

    Second, you give lines which the book I coauthored says NOT to play. 

    Third, I give you the correct line.

    Fourth, you expand on the line I gave you and after your expansion you claim that Black has a good position.

    Fifth, I show your line where you think Black has a good position and give one move for White and then White clearly has the advantage.

    Sixth, pfren, makes a corretion to your very flawed line and you take up the correction as your line also.

    Seventh, the correction leads to a position where the machines says White has a normal first move advantage and pfren says he thinks the machines are incorrect in this case and essentially Black has an equal game. I slightly disagree with pfren and think the position gives White the normal first move advantage.

    That is the sequence. Can I PROVE that in this one postion White has the normal first move advantage?  No, of course that would be hard to prove.

    But you are a very long way away from proving your claim that against the Ponziani Black can get very good positions.  Your claim is somewhat ambigous in the first place as you can say that against any opening. For example, I can claim that against the Ruy Lopez Black can get very good positions and, of course my claim would be true.

    So, just to prove a point I claim that against the Ruy Lopez - Black can get very good positions.  DUH!

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #230


    Demidjinn the Center Counter with 1. e4  d5  2. exd5  Qxd5 used to also be thought of as a very bad opening  [and there was at least some reason as the black queen is developed so early] but now, for most, it is an  opening that even the world champ sometimes plays.

    I had at least a part in rehabilitating that opening.  Some still say it is not good but at least most will give concrete variations for their claim.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #231


    Against Nf6 and Nxe4, doesn't this just gain an edge:

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #232


    I'm slightly worried about play down the h file but black does not have enough space to take advantage of this.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #234


    Ok, I will live in my imaginary world and you can live in yours!Laughing

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #235


    Perception is reality.  We all live in ours.  Maybe I should buy that book.  Smile

    The first opening I learned was Ponziani.  Looks like there's still lots to learn.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #236


    There is quite a bit of information on the forums for the group Ponziani Power.  [ not that I don't want you to buy the book Laughing]

    There is more to the Ponziani than most people think. Especially if you are not prepared and do something like to play 1. e4  e5  2. Nf3  Nc6  3. c3  d5

    and then if you have not studied the opening you run into 4. Qa4 which is hard to respond to if all you have is  that 3.c3  d5 is susposed to be ok for Black.

    I have seen high experts and some masters founder because they just assumed the Ponziani was an easy opening and when it came right down to a game--they did not know the moves.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #237


    While it is often said the Ponziani is a good opening through say the 2000 level [which is a LOT of chess players] I will differ  because I have played The Ponziani way back when I had a rating of 2500 + and against my peers at the time.

    And since that time--there have been a ton of improvements in this opening and quite a number of improvements are not yet published. 

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #238


    Sounds about right to me.

    My chief concern with playing it would be how many opportunities does black have for transposing away from it, assuming black starts 1) e4, e5.

    But that's always a problem when you play 1) e4.

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #239


    Shepti 13  in your line White will very usually 0-0-0 rather than 0-0. But there are better ways to play that line for White--it is a little complex.

    In your particular position you left the d pawn undefended [unless it was a gambit]

  • 4 years ago · Quote · #240


    There are many White follow ups after these moves which some consider the main line of the Ponziani

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