I played the ponziani in otb chess for about one year and did well with it until my opponents came to the board prepared for it and were no longer surprised by my opening choice . It doesnt give black as many serious problems as does the Ruy, Scotch and even many lines of the Italian game imo.
Ponziani Opening
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After the moves 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6
White has two lines: 5. d3 and 5 Bb5
After 5.Bb5 Nge7 White has two main moves
6. 0-0 and 6. d4
In this last variation, Firebrand gave a refutation to 6. d3 [if I remember right] But 6. d3 while refuted--is not one of the 2 main lines at that point.
When the book, Play the Ponziani was written there was a period of time when I was incapacitated and thus my co author had to supply the material for this line: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6.
There is a large section in the book on this line but sorry to say I am not "up" on the theory of this particular line. In the last couple of months, I have been studying the theory of this line and have come up with improvements for White. I do not dispute that White has not done well against 4. ... f6 in the past.
All I am saying is that the whole line is very complex and I have found some improvements and the final verdict is out as far as I am concerned on that particular line.
Chess is a very hard and complex game. Some lines which look bad can later be seen to be ok and some lines which look good can possibly be refuted.
I will agree that correspondence chess is one good way to test lines but in such a complex variation with many possible lines even they can get it wrong [sometimes].
ponz111 wrote:
After the moves 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6
White has two lines: 5. d3 and 5 Bb5
After 5.Bb5 Nge7 White has two main moves
6. 0-0 and 6. d4
In this last variation, Firebrand gave a refutation to 6. d3 [if I remember right] But 6. d3 while refuted--is not one of the 2 main lines at that point.
After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6:
1) 5.d3 is obviously passive and I don`t see any problems for Black after 5...Be6.
2) After 5.Bb5 Ne7:
a) 6.d4? is mistake - after 6...dxe4 White is pawn down without any compensation.
b) After 6.0-0 Black should play 6...a6 with idea to make exchange sac (7...axb5) like in lines after 6.d3.
Pacifique wrote:
ponz111 wrote:
After the moves 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6
White has two lines: 5. d3 and 5 Bb5
After 5.Bb5 Nge7 White has two main moves
6. 0-0 and 6. d4
In this last variation, Firebrand gave a refutation to 6. d3 [if I remember right] But 6. d3 while refuted--is not one of the 2 main lines at that point.
After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6:
1) 5.d3 is obviously passive and I don`t see any problems for Black after 5...Be6.
2) After 5.Bb5 Ne7:
a) 6.d4? is mistake - after 6...dxe4 White is pawn down without any compensation.
b) After 6.0-0 Black should play 6...a6 with idea to make exchange sac (7...axb5) like in lines after 6.d3.
Ponz just skipped a move in his head. The normal move is 6. exd5, followed by 6...Qxd5 and then 7. d4 or 7. O-O
These lines are both fairly complicated. I played the 7. d4 line as white in the Ponziani knockout tournament and won, but my opponent got a knight trapped....so that win had little to do with the opening or any strong play by myself.
In the lines with 3...Nf6 4. d4 Nxe4 5. d5 Ne7 6. Nxe5 Ng6, our Ponziani group considers 7. Qf3 slightly preferable to 7. Qd4. White's d5 pawn gives a slight space advantage which allows some queenside play. It is somewhat drawish, but I would say it's moderately uncomfortable for black to defend and very difficult for black to dream of winning.
thank you furrykittens you are correct I skipped a move and I should have said these are two of the main lines:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6 5. Bb5 Nge7
6. exd5 Qxd5 and now the two main moves are
7. 0-0 and 7. d4
The lines after these two moves are quite complicated and numerous.
For the past couple of months I have been finding improvements but
as far as I am concerned--the verdict is out.
Aug 19, 2012
0
#147
I have been reading some of the coments about the Ponziani opening, to me if a opening feels good to me that is all that counts.
If my opponent does not enjoy it then thats his problem not mine. I have just returned to the game so having to learen it all over again, but finding the right style of play for yourself must help your game.
ponz111 wrote:
thank you furrykittens you are correct I skipped a move and I should have said these are two of the main lines:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6 5. Bb5 Nge7
6. exd5 Qxd5 and now the two main moves are
7. 0-0 and 7. d4
The lines after these two moves are quite complicated and numerous.
For the past couple of months I have been finding improvements but
as far as I am concerned--the verdict is out.
And what if Black plays 7...e4 in reply to 7.0-0 and 7.d4 ?
To answer your question:
Whoever plays that move against our team will find out!
The 4...f6 variation is the one recommended in two recent repertoire books, by Kaufmann and Lysyj.
Lysyj has done an excellent work (and Kaufmann his usual database and engine dump mixture), and it seems that Black is at least OK. Still, I prefer the 3...Nf6 4.d4 ed4! 5.e5 Nd5 variation, simply because black gets a solid AND ambitious position, without any real need to memorize long strings. It also has nother plus: it can be used against the Goring gambit as well.
I messed up my team on that variation. As I said earlier when the book was published--I was ill and was not able to study or participate in the 3. c3 d5
4. Qa4 f6 variations and when the game came on I was unprepared and got my team into a horrible position. However since then I have been able to find a lot of moves in that variation, so we will see what happens next time someone plays that line...
To play against the current game you must be a member of the team playing us.
We are doing well in our other two games.
There's no big point joining that game: White played badly as early as move ten, and currently has a miserable position. Black has a huge advantage, but this is hardly a refutation of the Ponziani.
IMO the best move for white after 4.Qa4 f6 is 5.d3 (ponz111 may gracefully disagree), where engines say Black is very slightly better, but IMO this is a fine dynamically equal position, reminiscent of a Phlidor in reverse, where both sides have made some concessions. Black's (a queen on a4) is no big deal, while white's (a pawn on f6) is of a more permanent nature. I do not claim any advantage for white, but I would not mind playing this as white under any time control.
Of course that terrible game is not a refutation of the Ponziani. It is the result of my having a senior irrational moment and seeing ghosts. In this case I let the team down.
Pfrens line of 4. Qa4 f6 5.d3 is playable. It is not my cup of tea but it is okeydokey.
Regarding chat re the current terrible game, I made a comment how
White can strive for a win. Play to exchange all the pieces and just leave Pawns on the board but leave the Pawns just as they are. Place our king on c4 and their king on d7 and be sure it is our move and then play h4-h5.
This plan will not be easy... [especially now that I have given it away]
FirebrandX wrote:
pfren wrote:
Black's (a queen on a4) is no big deal, while white's (a pawn on f6) is of a more permanent nature. I do not claim any advantage for white, but I would not mind playing this as white under any time control.
I think you have the colors backwards there, but I get the point. However, I feel you'd be only earning a draw at best on ICCF with that line. As such, it's a wasted white.
It can be said about many practicable openings/opening lines, playable in human vs human play and useless in centaur chess.
And what specific line could White Play in ICCF to have a good chance to win. What specific line would Black play to have a good chance to win in ICCF?
Back in my day you could win by coming up with innovations or new lines that the other players were not prepared for. But I am guessing with the very large data bases, players can be prepared for anything except for an entirely new line?
FirebrandX wrote:
Pacifique wrote:
FirebrandX wrote:
pfren wrote:
Black's (a queen on a4) is no big deal, while white's (a pawn on f6) is of a more permanent nature. I do not claim any advantage for white, but I would not mind playing this as white under any time control.
I think you have the colors backwards there, but I get the point. However, I feel you'd be only earning a draw at best on ICCF with that line. As such, it's a wasted white.
It can be said about many practicable openings/opening lines, playable in human vs human play and useless in centaur chess.
Note that pfren claimed "under any time control".
You can play "under any time control" also without engine assistance. Like in this site.
I do not know the verdict on the gambit but in the moves you gave could
White continue: 8. Qd5 Nf6 9. cxb7 Nxd5 10. bxa8=Q Ba6+
11. Kxf2 Qxa8 12. Bxa6
This is a gambit for those who love tactics and action. Nice ending in your posted game.
White does not usually play the line you gave any more but there was a position resulting a few moves after that line which was said to be dead equal and I did show it was not. There are better lines for White after 5. d5 Ne7.
The position you give looks quite equal but there is more to it than meets the eye. But still I would now suggest a different continuation.
Also, there are very few "Ponziani fanatics"--only one that I know of...
[and that one is only 1/2 a Ponziani fanatic]