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Ponziani Opening

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ponz111
DrSpudnik wrote:

I used to know a 1900/2000 player who played the Ponziani. He always hoped for 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf3 4. d4 exd4 5. e5...with a violent attack.

And anyone numb enough to play into this, pretty much went under by move 20. Otherwise, the game was either a drawish, dud (3...Nf6 lines) or tactical nightmares (3... d5 lines).

Personally, I prefer to get my King's Bishop out on move 3 and then castle early, keeping options open, as stated above. Though, like with many discredited lines, you can play it if you like and even do fairly well with it.


And was the 1900/2000 rated player up on the theory of the Ponziani? Yes, when you first learn to play chess you may move 1. e4 and then get a Knight out and then get a Bishop out and then 0-0 ASAP and take things from there. There is nothing wrong with that--but as we learn more and more chess--we find other ways to play.

ponz111
PistachioNut1022 wrote:
ReasonableDoubt wrote:
ponz111 wrote:

I am David Taylor, coauthor of Play the Ponziani. Sometimes I see a posting of how dull and boring is the Ponziani. Those who say this have little knowledge of the Ponziani and are usually just parroting what they have heard.

The Ponziani is a dynamic opening if you know the theory or some of the theory.

I will be glad to address any questions on this opening.


If you know the theory, you know that black basically equalizes in something around 10 moves by playing natural moves and it's garbage only useful for beating 1300s who have never seen it before and are afraid to play Ne7 after d5.

 

The only real reason that anyone would bother playing the Ponziani is hoping that black will play d5 after which sharp play ensues (although black is the one playing for the advantage!). Even in 1904, it was considered antique and basically useless.
"There is no point in White's third move unless Black plays badly. ... White practically surrenders the privilege of the first move." -Frank Marshall


What about 7. Nxg6 hxg6 8. Qe2 f5 9. f3

 

This seems to be 1-0, someone tell me where I went wrong.


Correct for black is 7. Nxg6 hxg6 8. Qe2 Qe7 with about an equal game. However 7. Nxg6 is not the best move for White.

PistachioNut1022
ponz111 wrote:
PistachioNut1022 wrote:
ReasonableDoubt wrote:
ponz111 wrote:

I am David Taylor, coauthor of Play the Ponziani. Sometimes I see a posting of how dull and boring is the Ponziani. Those who say this have little knowledge of the Ponziani and are usually just parroting what they have heard.

The Ponziani is a dynamic opening if you know the theory or some of the theory.

I will be glad to address any questions on this opening.


If you know the theory, you know that black basically equalizes in something around 10 moves by playing natural moves and it's garbage only useful for beating 1300s who have never seen it before and are afraid to play Ne7 after d5.

 

The only real reason that anyone would bother playing the Ponziani is hoping that black will play d5 after which sharp play ensues (although black is the one playing for the advantage!). Even in 1904, it was considered antique and basically useless.
"There is no point in White's third move unless Black plays badly. ... White practically surrenders the privilege of the first move." -Frank Marshall


What about 7. Nxg6 hxg6 8. Qe2 f5 9. f3

 

This seems to be 1-0, someone tell me where I went wrong.


Correct for black is 7. Nxg6 hxg6 8. Qe2 Qe7 with about an equal game. However 7. Nxg6 is not the best move for White.


Why would white not play 7. Nxg6, it seems to give black a doubled pawn and forces O-O-O, right?

ponz111
Vincent_Valentine wrote:

A space advantage isn't everything, but yes, white does have that. Not huge, but it's there.


Often in the Ponziani White has a small space advantage combined with a small development advantage and the two together amount to a "normal first move advantage"

Mr_Gibss

I played an interesting game against Ponziani a couple of days ago:
ponz111

Very nice game! Your game is somewhat similar to Nakamura-J. Becera Rivero where Nakamura followed the [poor] line of 6. Bb5 and 7. Nc4 Of course White has to make mistakes to lose but you really showed how to exploit the mistakes! Kudos![Referring to Leoden game]

evansgambit15

love what your doing mr taylor

ponz111

Hi Mr. Reasonable Doubt, First thanks much for posting my game, you are a good sport! Now let us look at your suggested improvement:

10. Nd2 b6 [your suggestion] 11. Nc4 Nxc4 12. Bxc4 Be7 13. 0-0 0-0 [also your

sugestion and good moves] Now there are several lines of play but two of them are: 14. a4 Bb7 15. Bf4 d6 16. a5 a6 17. Rfe1 Rfe8 18. axb6 cxb6 18. Bd3 b5 White has some advantage. or: 14. Re1 Bd6 15. Bg5 f6 16. Bh4 Bb7 17. Bg3 and here White has some advantage. These lines with this Pawn Structure and both Knights off the board [and eventually maybe both Rooks off the board] seem to play well for White. In this last line having Rooks on the board is ok for White also. [my opinion]

evansgambit15

why dont you make a vidieo sieries on the ponziani mr taylor?Money mouth

ponz111
LoveUChess wrote:
ponz111 wrote:

Hi Mr. Reasonable Doubt, First thanks much for posting my game, you are a good sport! Now let us look at your suggested improvement:

10. Nd2 b6 [your suggestion] 11. Nc4 Nxc4 12. Bxc4 Be7 13. 0-0 0-0 [also your

sugestion and good moves] Now there are several lines of play but two of them are: 14. a4 Bb7 15. Bf4 d6 16. a5 a6 17. Rfe1 Rfe8 18. axb6 cxb6 18. Bd3 b5 White has some advantage. or: 14. Re1 Bd6 15. Bg5 f6 16. Bh4 Bb7 17. Bg3 and here White has some advantage. These lines with this Pawn Structure and both Knights off the board [and eventually maybe both Rooks off the board] seem to play well for White. In this last line having Rooks on the board is ok for White also. [my opinion]


If Black equalizes in move 3 why play this opening ??


Black does not equalize on move 3. Suggest you study the opening and then decide if it is ok or not?

Arctor
LoveUChess wrote:
ponz111 wrote:

Hi Mr. Reasonable Doubt, First thanks much for posting my game, you are a good sport! Now let us look at your suggested improvement:

10. Nd2 b6 [your suggestion] 11. Nc4 Nxc4 12. Bxc4 Be7 13. 0-0 0-0 [also your

sugestion and good moves] Now there are several lines of play but two of them are: 14. a4 Bb7 15. Bf4 d6 16. a5 a6 17. Rfe1 Rfe8 18. axb6 cxb6 18. Bd3 b5 White has some advantage. or: 14. Re1 Bd6 15. Bg5 f6 16. Bh4 Bb7 17. Bg3 and here White has some advantage. These lines with this Pawn Structure and both Knights off the board [and eventually maybe both Rooks off the board] seem to play well for White. In this last line having Rooks on the board is ok for White also. [my opinion]


If Black equalizes in move 3 why play this opening ??


 Because equalize ≠ win. You don't sign the scoresheets as soon as theory ends

Nobody is suggesting you trot out the Ponziani next time you play Carlsen, but it's clear that it's much better than it's reputation and White can maintain a miniscule advantage (which is more than can be said for a lot of more popular openings)

ponz111
evansgambit15 wrote:

why dont you make a vidieo sieries on the ponziani mr taylor?


I am not competent eough to make a video series or I would :) My brain is slowly draining away...:)

TheOldReb
ponz111 wrote:
evansgambit15 wrote:

why dont you make a vidieo sieries on the ponziani mr taylor?


I am not competent eough to make a video series or I would :) My brain is slowly draining away...:)


When I had that problem I just put some ear plugs in ... Wink

evansgambit15
ponz111 wrote:
evansgambit15 wrote:

why dont you make a vidieo sieries on the ponziani mr taylor?


I am not competent eough to make a video series or I would :) My brain is slowly draining away...:)


 then have your friend mr hayward make one

ponz111
evansgambit15 wrote:
ponz111 wrote:
evansgambit15 wrote:

why dont you make a vidieo sieries on the ponziani mr taylor?


I am not competent eough to make a video series or I would :) My brain is slowly draining away...:)


then have your friend mr hayward make one


Seriously, when I became ill and was unable to contribute to our book--Keith Hayward took over and spent many hours and many days to complete our book. There would be no book if it were not for him. So, I would never ask anything more of him.

evansgambit15
ponz111 wrote:
evansgambit15 wrote:
ponz111 wrote:
evansgambit15 wrote:

why dont you make a vidieo sieries on the ponziani mr taylor?


I am not competent eough to make a video series or I would :) My brain is slowly draining away...:)


then have your friend mr hayward make one


Seriously, when I became ill and was unable to contribute to our book--Keith Hayward took over and spent many hours and many days to complete our book. There would be no book if it were not for him. So, I would never ask anything more of him.

ask if he wants to?

evansgambit15
Thaddeus_Samson
Aquafog

Seriously, when I became ill and was unable to contribute to our book--Keith Hayward took over and spent many hours and many days to complete our book. There would be no book if it were not for him. So, I would never ask anything more of him.

ponz111
Mr_Gibss wrote:

 

I played an interesting game against Ponziani a couple of days ago:

 Play the Ponziani suggests 4. exf5!   However if you decide to go into the 4. d4 lines then we suggest 4. d4   fxe4  5. Nxe5  Nf6  6. Bg5!