Bxf3 is calmer, black will play in typical caro fashion, pawns on light squares develop the look for the c5 or e5 break.
After Bh5 white could play 6.Ng3 Bg6 7.Ne5 picking up the Two bishops anyway
Question about Caro-Kann Two Knights Variation
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Nc3always wrote:
Bxf3 is calmer, black will play in typical caro fashion, pawns on light squares develop the look for the c5 or e5 break.
After Bh5 white could play 6.Ng3 Bg6 7.Ne5 picking up the Two bishops anyway
Thank you for your answer.
Aug 13, 2018
0
#4
As usual in chess com opening forum, statements are made which aren't correct, 3....dxe4 4Nxp Bg4 isn't the main line of the variation, it leads to positions were black has no compensation for two bishops in open position. The OP is confusing it with 3...Bg4.
TwoMove wrote:
As usual in chess com opening forum, statements are made which aren't correct, 3....dxe4 4Nxp Bg4 isn't the main line of the variation, it leads to positions were black has no compensation for two bishops in open position. The OP is confusing it with 3...Bg4.
Oh, you're right. Oops.
Aug 13, 2018
0
#6
bh5 leads to scary lines with early g4 and ne5 where black is worse. (how much worse is the big question)
Aug 13, 2018
0
#7
for example
i prefer white with bishop pair and arguably better pawn structure. engine gives this position as near perfect equality but database stats clearly prefer white. Probably bc his play is that much more intuitive.
Another good try is Qe2 instead of h4.
Aug 13, 2018
0
#8
Yes, after 3...Bg4 4h3 strong players like Smyslov have played 4....Bh5etc. It might be most people just find 4...BxN simpler.
A_G_A wrote:
This is the main line of the Caro Kann Two Knights variation. Why does black usually play 5. Bxf3 instead of 5. Bh5? Isn't it better to keep the bishop pair and the pin?
I dont play 3........ Bg4 or 3.....dxe4. because Stockfish doesn't like it.
Stockfish choose 3. ...... Nf6 instead!! Possible continuation is
Aug 14, 2018
0
#10
DeirdreSkye wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
for example
i prefer white with bishop pair and arguably better pawn structure. engine gives this position as near perfect equality but database stats clearly prefer white. Probably bc his play is that much more intuitive.
Another good try is Qe2 instead of h4.
Black is perfectly fine and the pair of bishops will play no role at all(I'm quite sure White can't even keep the pair of bishops on the board for long). In fact with e5 square well controlled it is Black who has the easier game.As for the pawn structure weaknesses , Black has a lot of dynamic compensation , that is quite obvious.The game Fischer -Smyslov clearly proves that White has no objective theoretical or practical advantage.
The more wins for white in databases is result of games played by players with huge rating difference as the line is usually used by players that hope to get lower rated players out of their preparation.Look at games with similar ratings and both players over 2400 and you will get a completely different picture.
you are using a 1959 game draw from fischer vs a world champion to prove "Black is ok"? i think more recent data is warranted.
for example, i modified the database search to only include games between 2500's or higher, and after qd3 i get a much smaller number of games (6 which is probably too small to get too definite a conclusion) but black did not win a single game.
Aug 14, 2018
0
#11
A_G_A wrote:
Nc3always wrote:
Bxf3 is calmer, black will play in typical caro fashion, pawns on light squares develop the look for the c5 or e5 break.
After Bh5 white could play 6.Ng3 Bg6 7.Ne5 picking up the Two bishops anyway
Thank you for your answer.
Except... his answer used illegal moves so it made no sense...
Preggo_Basashi wrote:
A_G_A wrote:
Nc3always wrote:
Bxf3 is calmer, black will play in typical caro fashion, pawns on light squares develop the look for the c5 or e5 break.
After Bh5 white could play 6.Ng3 Bg6 7.Ne5 picking up the Two bishops anyway
Thank you for your answer.
Except... his answer used illegal moves so it made no sense...
There was a mistake in my diagram, which I got rid of, so that's why his answer did not make sense.
Aug 14, 2018
0
#13
drmrboss wrote:
A_G_A wrote:
This is the main line of the Caro Kann Two Knights variation. Why does black usually play 5. Bxf3 instead of 5. Bh5? Isn't it better to keep the bishop pair and the pin?
I dont play 3........ Bg4 or 3.....dxe4. because Stockfish doesn't like it.
Stockfish choose 3. ...... Nf6 instead!! Possible continuation is
The GM move order is something like:
Aug 14, 2018
0
#14
A_G_A wrote:
Preggo_Basashi wrote:
A_G_A wrote:
Nc3always wrote:
Bxf3 is calmer, black will play in typical caro fashion, pawns on light squares develop the look for the c5 or e5 break.
After Bh5 white could play 6.Ng3 Bg6 7.Ne5 picking up the Two bishops anyway
Thank you for your answer.
Except... his answer used illegal moves so it made no sense...
There was a mistake in my diagram, which I got rid of, so that's why his answer did not make sense.
oh, ok.
Aug 14, 2018
0
#15
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
for example
i prefer white with bishop pair and arguably better pawn structure. engine gives this position as near perfect equality but database stats clearly prefer white. Probably bc his play is that much more intuitive.
Another good try is Qe2 instead of h4.
IIRC it's better to wait on the bishop to b5
Aug 14, 2018
0
#16
Optimissed wrote:
drmrboss wrote:
A_G_A wrote:
This is the main line of the Caro Kann Two Knights variation. Why does black usually play 5. Bxf3 instead of 5. Bh5? Isn't it better to keep the bishop pair and the pin?
I dont play 3........ Bg4 or 3.....dxe4. because Stockfish doesn't like it.
Stockfish choose 3. ...... Nf6 instead!!>>>>
But Stockfish can't play openings and middle games particularly well and cannot analyse 3. ....Bg4 to a significant plus for white. It makes sense to get rid of the c8 B since black has pawns on white squares, rather than allow white to expand using the B as a target. Stockfish is mainly an endgame engine.
Black actually seems to score quite well with 3...Nf6 looks a decent move.
Aug 14, 2018
0
#17
DeirdreSkye wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
for example
i prefer white with bishop pair and arguably better pawn structure. engine gives this position as near perfect equality but database stats clearly prefer white. Probably bc his play is that much more intuitive.
Another good try is Qe2 instead of h4.
Black is perfectly fine and the pair of bishops will play no role at all(I'm quite sure White can't even keep the pair of bishops on the board for long). In fact with e5 square well controlled it is Black who has the easier game.As for the pawn structure weaknesses , Black has a lot of dynamic compensation , that is quite obvious.The game Fischer -Smyslov clearly proves that White has no objective theoretical or practical advantage.
The more wins for white in databases is result of games played by players with huge rating difference as the line is usually used by players that hope to get lower rated players out of their preparation.Look at games with similar ratings and both players over 2400 and you will get a completely different picture.
you are using a 1959 game draw from fischer vs a world champion to prove "Black is ok"? i think more recent data is warranted.
for example, i modified the database search to only include games between 2500's or higher, and after qd3 i get a much smaller number of games (6 which is probably too small to get too definite a conclusion) but black did not win a single game.
Why after 12.Qd3? It is convenient to count the results counting the wrong 12...f5 along with the good 12...Kf7?
But ok let's do it as it is convenient for you. Wven that way with both players over 2500 there are only 4 games , 3 draws and 1 white win from a blunder in time trouble. How exactly that proves your point?
With both players over 2400 white won 4 Black won 6 and 5 draws(I am not counting Nakamura-Grischuk blitz game for obvious reasons.
If you put the correct 12...Kf7 and you look the games then the wins are 3 for white and 6 for Black(double) with 5 draws with both players over 2400. 14 games with both players over 2400 is a good sample , don't you think?
You talk about the pair of bishops when in almost all games the pair of bishops played no role. Take a look at the games and you will see it yourself.
Here are the 3 white wins:
In all 3 games there is no pair of bishops after 14th move. The same more or less happens in the draws and in Black wins. Check it yourself. I checked around 20 games and only in one I saw the pair of bishops to play a role(a game with more than 500 points rating difference where Black was clearly better and messed it badly)
A 2400+ GM was busted by an unrated player. And in case you say that this unrated player was a great talent , he is today rated 1773 and he had 1803 peak!
Examine some games and you will see that white's pair of bishops means less than nothing in this position. White can't even keep the bishops on the board.
Check the line I posted in #17. Pretty sure it's an improvement i.e. Bb5+ is not the best. They probably didn't know that decades ago.
As for modern GMs playing, that's odd. I guess there are spots even on the sun. I wouldn't expect a regular two knights player to do this though.
Aug 14, 2018
0
#18
DeirdreSkye wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
DeirdreSkye wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
for example
i prefer white with bishop pair and arguably better pawn structure. engine gives this position as near perfect equality but database stats clearly prefer white. Probably bc his play is that much more intuitive.
Another good try is Qe2 instead of h4.
Black is perfectly fine and the pair of bishops will play no role at all(I'm quite sure White can't even keep the pair of bishops on the board for long). In fact with e5 square well controlled it is Black who has the easier game.As for the pawn structure weaknesses , Black has a lot of dynamic compensation , that is quite obvious.The game Fischer -Smyslov clearly proves that White has no objective theoretical or practical advantage.
The more wins for white in databases is result of games played by players with huge rating difference as the line is usually used by players that hope to get lower rated players out of their preparation.Look at games with similar ratings and both players over 2400 and you will get a completely different picture.
you are using a 1959 game draw from fischer vs a world champion to prove "Black is ok"? i think more recent data is warranted.
for example, i modified the database search to only include games between 2500's or higher, and after qd3 i get a much smaller number of games (6 which is probably too small to get too definite a conclusion) but black did not win a single game.
Why after 12.Qd3? It is convenient to count the results counting the wrong 12...f5 along with the good 12...Kf7?
But ok let's do it as it is convenient for you. With both players over 2500 there are only 4 games , 3 draws and 1 white win from a blunder in time trouble. How exactly that proves your point?
With both players over 2400 white won 4 Black won 6 and 5 draws(I am not counting Nakamura-Grischuk blitz game for obvious reasons.
If you put the correct 12...Kf7 and you look the games then the wins are 3 for white and 6 for Black(double) with 5 draws with both players over 2400. 14 games with both players over 2400 is a good sample , don't you think?
You talk about the pair of bishops when in almost all games the pair of bishops played no role. Take a look at the games and you will see it yourself.
Here are the 3 white wins:
In all 3 games there is no pair of bishops after 14th move. The same more or less happens in the draws and in Black wins. Check it yourself. I checked around 20 games and only in one I saw the pair of bishops to play a role(a game with more than 500 points rating difference where Black was clearly better and messed it badly)
A 2400+ GM was busted by an unrated player. And in case you say that this unrated player was a great talent , he is today rated 1773 and he had 1803 peak!
Examine some games and you will see that white's pair of bishops means less than nothing in this position. White can't even keep the bishops on the board.
what database are you using? im using chesstempo's database which is relatively up to date but not the best.
the bishop pair is not that important in this position, there i retract a bit, (There is no clean way to save it that is although perhaps bd3 or even be2 instead of qd3 are interesting tries), but i was only speaking after qd3 kf7 in the database, i didnt even consider f5 in my searches.
Aug 14, 2018
0
#19
Posting more games with Bb5 isn't going to convince me. I play the 2 knights caro, so I've looked at this opening longer than 5 minutes so... I don't know what to tell you. Look into it for yourself if you're interested in playing it.
Aug 14, 2018
0
#20
I've had this position a few times. Black is busted, and on top of that white is having all the fun.
(White lost this game but was practically winning out of the opening).
(f4 was a little different. Usually you're trying for Nf4-Nd3)
Of course there are other options for black than what happened here, just an example.
And if 2500 GMs who regularly play the 2 knights caro choose Bb5, maybe they know some great equalizing move order for black when the bishop stays on f1, and so it comes down to personal preference for them. I don't know.
This is the main line of the Caro Kann Two Knights variation. Why does black usually play 4. Bxf3 instead of 4. Bh5? Isn't it better to keep the bishop pair and the pin?