Question concerning King's Indian Defense

I have a question regarding move order in the King's Indian Defense. Why is Nc6 before e5 considered a bad idea?

Please read the diagram...

I was asking why the exchange on e5 which is a direct result of kicking the knight away is considered bad.

Well there is a pawn on e5 in the mainline aswell, and after e6 black has undoubled his pawns and is ready to continue with the standard f5 etc. I guess the major issue is that c5 is weakened. But from my experience it has't been that easy to utilize after a6 and b6.

Hey. There are some far more knowledgeable than me, but my best guess is that for the moment the KI Bishy (DSB) is blocked...while giving white more tempi to develop.

(The major difference with this line and the mainline, is that e5 is no longer supported by the d6 pawn. Soo it would seem precarious to launch the usual wing attack with the center somewhat fluid [shaky])

Considering that White is planning a pawn storn on the Queenside, b6 and a6 create a natural plan for white, namely c5 (after some preperation). It might also be interesting to play an immediate c5 as White.

My theory is that White usually wants to attack on the queenside in this kind of position. To do that, he'll have to push his queenside pawns, including the c-pawn. Normally, that requires some preparation, because c5 is guarded by Black's d-pawn. By moving this pawn to e5, you've basically given White c4-c5 for free and made his attack much easier.

Also, Black has given up a center pawn for a non-center pawn in the opening, which is rarely good.

Then again, I only play the KID occasionally, so I might be completely off.

EDIT: Ah, crap, ninja'd by Firethorn15...

najdorf96: You can't really target e5 and the dark squared bishop is often blocked even in the mainlines of KID. A pawn storm is also difficult after e6 and the exchange of the c-pawn.

Firethorn, and Happyungulate: c5 isn't possible since Black has played e6 and exchanged off the c-pawn. However it has opened the c-file, but with a6, b6 and Ne8 in the position I've had a really rough time penetrating.

What do you mean, c5 isn't possible?

I'm not saying that white autmatically gets a crushing attack on the queenside, it's just that his position is a tad bit more comfortable to play than it would be in the main line KID. Not outright winning, but enough of a difference to make 6...Nc6 an unpopular choice.

Oh the immediate c5. Isn't it a little premature though? I guess Black can just counter by immediatly hitting the center by b6 followed by e6. Something like this:

Firethorn's aggressive immediate c5 looks pretty aggressive and strong, but even a more modest approach gives White a very nice position:

White has got a nice center, is better developed and has the half-open c-file to work with. Black on the other hand doesn't have a lot to brag about.

The line you show is what I play Happyungulate, but imo it's not so easy to play as it looks. Black does have counterplay on the kingside with the obvious f5-thrust. And add a6, b6 and Ne8 for Black and it's hard to break through, however this is only from my own experience, which doesn't say alot since I have no more than 1850 ELO. I should also mention that I faced the exact position in your diagram in a OTB tournament vs a FM with a rating of 2300+. Needles to say I got completely crushed, I just couldn't penetrate into his position...

I see what you mean. There's probably no way to outright refute (as in: destroy right away) 6...Nf6, I don't think that White can get more than a microscopically tiny positional advantage. That might have been what the FM was thinking when he played it. He knew that it was just playable enough to not give White too much of an advantage, but uncommon enough for you to be unlikely to be prepared for it, so he could use his strength to outplay you in the middlegame.

Just for curiosity's sake, could you maybe post the whole game?

Fisherfan10, you can't really compare the race that occurs after the standard e5 and the position with the exchange on e5 after an early Nc6. In the mainline both sides have all of their pieces left on the board and start pawn storming like there is no tomorrow.

However after an early Nc6 and exchange on e5, the position has changed and neither side can really go all in after such an exchange, instead the Black players I've met have slowly built up their attack on the kingside while patiently defending their other flank which is now hard to penetrate because of the absence of a c-pawn (e6 will be played). The c-file is nice to have, but still I've struggled to make use of it.

HappyUngulate: Yes, I can post it, just need to find the paper sheet lol. 

Btw, you also avoid any Bayonett attack by playing this way. 

Here inlies another problem for Black:

This is the game I played vs a FM. I'm sure I stood better at some point but it proofs it isn't as easy to crack as one might think.

Way to post a random game that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, congrats!