Ranking all responses to e4

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SamuelAjedrez95
PawnHurricanes wrote:

All of which are at worst slightly better for black.

No, b4 and f4 are trash moves against the Sicilian.

TheSampson
PawnHurricanes wrote:
TheSampson wrote:
PawnHurricanes wrote:
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
PawnHurricanes wrote:

I guess, I was thinking more about club level and thinking about the fact that there are around 10-15 responses to e4 c5 as well

This is the same as saying there are 20 responses to 1. e4, so you shouldn't bother with 1. e4, when over half of those responses are not considerably challenging.

but they are challenging, that's the point

Against e4 or the Sicilian?

The sicilian. Maybe there aren't 10 on move 2, but think about all of the variations by move 5, even.

I think GothamChess is getting to your brain. There’s only 1 really challenging Sicilian variation: the Open Sicilian. Everything else can be taken care of by studying for 5 minutes, 20 minutes max, even the Smith-Morra. There are a few decent Anti-Sicilians like the Rossolimo, but the Sicilian Defense is not a hard opening to learn, speaking from a player who turned from a Gotham stan to a Najdorf Sicilian player.

PawnHurricanes
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
PawnHurricanes wrote:

All of which are at worst slightly better for black.

No, b4 and f4 are trash moves against the Sicilian.

they are -0.3 and 0.00, respectively

SamuelAjedrez95

g3 and Nc3 are generally going to transpose into the same thing, a fianchetto Closed Sicilian, which is a very easy game for black. It's been demonstrated that black can actually seize an advantage here.

All 0.0 apparently but black wins most of the games.

SamuelAjedrez95
PawnHurricanes wrote:
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
PawnHurricanes wrote:

All of which are at worst slightly better for black.

No, b4 and f4 are trash moves against the Sicilian.

they are -0.3 and 0.00, respectively

f4 is a known poor move against the Sicilian because of d5. That's why Nc3 is played first and then f4, the Grand Prix Attack, but even then it's still better for black.

SamuelAjedrez95

b4 is actual trash. Not just losing a pawn for poor compensation but also crippling the queenside.

TheSampson
Doobybabo wrote:
FrogboyWarpz wrote:

My top 5 would be

1. Sicilian

2. Caro

3. E5

4. French

5. Pirc

never understood the pirc very well, can you explain why it's your #5?

It’s just the King’s Indian except it’s against 1. e4. It tries to get aggressive with e5, f5, and a kingside attack. Austrian Attack’s a goat against it though

(brilliant flair for dramatic effect)

SamuelAjedrez95

2. f4 actually has a better record against the Caro-Kann than the Sicilian.

TheSampson

Open Sicilian’s great for both sides. Both sides get dynamic advantages yet obtain almost no weaknesses. Absolute perfection and it’s a crime it doesn’t get played more.

Closed Sicilian just allows black to get a spacious position on the queenside- and white’s pawn storm is easily stopped.

Grand Prix Attack gives a decent position but it just doesn’t work. Gotham demonstrated a bullet game where Magnus Carlsen was playing the opening, don’t even say it.

Smith-Morra’s acceptable but black can easily neutralize white’s advantage and be a pawn up.

Wing Gambit’s absolute garbage and white destroys his own queenside and gives up a pawn so black can have the upmost advantage

Alapin’s decent but d5 almost immediately equalizes.

Moscow’s just not reliable.

Rossolimo’s great and I love it but not everyone’s gonna play Nc6 against 2. Nf3.

Tiviakov or whatever it’s called is good and I think it’s a useful sideline, but black does well in it.

Everything else is just a major sideline that equalizes almost immediately.

SamuelAjedrez95

I'm looking up all these moves in the database to compare the defences. You know 2. Nf3 legitimately has a better record against the Caro-Kann than the Sicilian as well?

SamuelAjedrez95

Against the Sicilian, 2. Nf3 is 32W/25B

Against the Caro-Kann, 2. Nf3 is 35W/26B

(In the master's database)

TheSampson
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:

I'm looking up all these moves in the database to compare the defences. You know 2. Nf3 legitimately has a better record against the Caro-Kann than the Sicilian as well?

Wow. That’s insane. Well, the Sicilian’s been played way much more so I don’t think the ratio’s exactly fair, and the Caro’s been played a lot by beginners who don’t really know how to refute Nf3.

TheSampson
TheSampson wrote:
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:

I'm looking up all these moves in the database to compare the defences. You know 2. Nf3 legitimately has a better record against the Caro-Kann than the Sicilian as well?

Wow. That’s insane. Well, the Sicilian’s been played way much more so I don’t think the ratio’s exactly fair, and the Caro’s been played a lot by beginners who don’t really know how to refute Nf3.

Wait, master’s database? Nf3’s probably been played like 2 times against the Caro if that’s the case

SamuelAjedrez95

Yeah the sample size is totally different so it's not an even comparison. This is in the master's database though.

SamuelAjedrez95

3207 times against the Caro-Kann

SamuelAjedrez95

433,274 times against the Sicilian

TheSampson

yeah according to the chess.com database, 1. Na3 has a better reputation than 1. e4

SamuelAjedrez95

2. f4 is scoring much better against the Caro-Kann

Against the Sicilian, this position

is 23W/34B (953 games)

Against the Caro-Kann, this position

is 32W/33B (104 games)

TheSampson

Oh wow according to the chess.com database 1. e4 c5 is more common than 1. e4 e5

SamuelAjedrez95
TheSampson wrote:

yeah according to the chess.com database, 1. Na3 has a better reputation than 1. e4

Lol, it's 14 games though. Still funny that it has a positive score in the master's database.

In the amateur's database it has an overwhelmingly negative score from 481,936 games.