Isn't the Qd8 Scandi very suspect because of the powerful 8.g4! pawn sac?
The following game features 3...Qd6, but since Black opted for ...Bg4 there is no better response after 8.g4! than taking the pawn, transposing... and suffering. The final position is won, and white missed a couple of deadly blows earlier.
https://youtu.be/PFv09N87Ozc?list=PL-qLOQ-OEls7BPOwIfQ_4i0zUwKhdXkId Arjun vs. Duda & Hikaru vs. Jospem! Speed Chess Championship 2024
4h15m Hikaru will play against Jose Martinez and in the end he will beat him having played a lot of Scandinavian Defense.
Personally it has never helped me to underestimate an opening that I have to face.
The g3 line has been my killer set up against the Scandy for long time.
Recently, I found a line in Qd8 Scandy which is helping the Scandy survive vs. g3 line.
It is only line I feel legitimately has a good plan vs. g3 line.
All the rest seem to get smashed.
The person playing the line was Hikaru of all people LOL
Lol, I play the Modern Scandi as my main counter to 1.e4 and score relatively well against 2000 rated opposition. Maybe you just don't understand chess well enough to properly utilize its main ideas.
Same... although I'm no where near as strong as you,,, against people my level I do very well playing it.
The fact that you don't have 1.d4 players lamenting about the Center Counter Defense say's the hate is generated by 1.e4 players and no one else ... Not my problem 1...d5 it takes away all their Ruy lopez, Sicilian, French and Caro-Kann booked up prep.
The g3 line has been my killer set up against the Scandy for long time.
Recently, I found a line in Qd8 Scandy which is helping the Scandy survive vs. g3 line.
It is only line I feel legitimately has a good plan vs. g3 line.
All the rest seem to get smashed.
The person playing the line was Hikaru of all people LOL
There is not a single line involving g2-g3 against 3...Qa5 which is even mildly annoying for Black.
It works fine against 3...Qd6 (4.d4 Nf6 5.d4 c6 6.g3!?), but against 3...Qa5 Black has a very good game inserting either ...e5, or ...Nc6/Bg4/0-0-0 - according to white's setup.
Just to inject a note of levity here: I was checking the DB and found this funny game. Probably a typo, but check out white's fourth move: 2500+ player misses hanging queen......
https://www.chess.com/games/view/1035863
The g3 line has been my killer set up against the Scandy for long time.
Recently, I found a line in Qd8 Scandy which is helping the Scandy survive vs. g3 line.
It is only line I feel legitimately has a good plan vs. g3 line.
All the rest seem to get smashed.
The person playing the line was Hikaru of all people LOL
There is not a single line involving g2-g3 against 3...Qa5 which is even mildly annoying for Black.
It works fine against 3...Qd6 (4.d4 Nf6 5.d4 c6 6.g3!?), but against 3...Qa5 Black has a very good game inserting either ...e5, or ...Nc6/Bg4/0-0-0 - according to white's setup.
I disagree!
I have won so many games with g3 against Qa5 Scandy. I feel like Qa5 Scandy is busted.
I have around:
- 70% win rate
- 25% draw rate
- 5% lose rate
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Databases show a 60% win rate for White and 20% win rate for Black. This is just the Nge2 line.
Black is even doing worse against the Nf3 line.
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The Qa5 Scandy is busted in my opinion.
If you look at Master Databases, It’s not looking good.
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The Qd8 Scandy use to get smashed as well.
Hikaru has found a nice line though to save Black!
The above line is the only Scandy line I have ever seen which I legitimately believe Black isn’t losing!
Black plan is to control the d4 square. All the pieces are aiming to attack d4.
I don’t know how long this line has been out.
I saw this line played by Hikaru.
I have yet to face it, but I respect and acknowledge it.
Its the only Scandy line which has made me think of changing something!
I have to either change my move orders or change my set up
g3 actually looks pretty good.
It's objectively like +0.18 by leela, which is better than many main lines for black such as the caro-kann or sicilian... and about the same as the Ruy Lopez objectively... I don't think we can just write off the whole line by giving 2-3 engine moves, chess is more complicated than that. The fact white is equalizing their familiarity with the lines against that of blacks while dramatically changing the patterns in the position is a huge win in itself, experience is the biggest advantage black has in the Scandi.
If white is in need of some toilet paper to wipe themselves with then yes, Englund gambit is the best for that.
I disagree!
I have won so many games with g3 against Qa5 Scandy. I feel like Qa5 Scandy is busted.
I have around:
- 70% win rate
- 25% draw rate
- 5% lose rate
—————————
Databases show a 60% win rate for White and 20% win rate for Black. This is just the Nge2 line.
Black is even doing worse against the Nf3 line.
—————————
The Qa5 Scandy is busted in my opinion.
If you look at Master Databases, It’s not looking good.
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The Qd8 Scandy use to get smashed as well.
Hikaru has found a nice line though to save Black!
The above line is the only Scandy line I have ever seen which I legitimately believe Black isn’t losing!
Black plan is to control the d4 square. All the pieces are aiming to attack d4.
I don’t know how long this line has been out.
I saw this line played by Hikaru.
I have yet to face it, but I respect and acknowledge it.
Its the only Scandy line which has made me think of changing something!
I have to either change my move orders or change my set up
g3 simply is not a critical line against the Qa5 scandinavian. And no, you do not score 82.5% against the Qa5 line as you said, after looking you up, you score 58% against the Qa5 line, which is not that bad, but it is not busting the opening by any means.
In all your variations black plays rather strange moves. Why play Bg4 when white play Ne2 to prevent just that move? How many scandinavian players would go for g6 instead of the regular setup?
Also, against the Qa5 line, black is always going for c6, making the bishop on g2 look weaker than in other g3 openings.
The line is probably playable, and if you know the positions it may surprise some scandinavian players. But it is far from a critical line where black is even remotely struggling objectively.
g3 simply is not a critical line against the Qa5 scandinavian. .... In all your variations black plays rather strange moves.... But it is far from a critical line where black is even remotely struggling objectively.
But that's kind of the point - black is playing suboptimal moves because he's probably never faced this line before. You can't remove that factor from the analysis. Bg5 is the most played move in that position at 2200+ elo.
The g3 lines eval is on par with the Ruy Lopez for white. But if the game were all about objective eval there'd be no reason for black to play the Scandi in the first place. Again you don't apply the same logic to black and white in your analysis.
g3 simply is not a critical line against the Qa5 scandinavian. .... In all your variations black plays rather strange moves.... But it is far from a critical line where black is even remotely struggling objectively.
But that's kind of the point - black is playing suboptimal moves because he's probably never faced this line before. You can't remove that factor from the analysis. Bg5 is the most played move in that position at 2200+ elo.
The g3 lines eval is on par with the Ruy Lopez for white. But if the game were all about objective eval there'd be no reason for black to play the Scandi in the first place. Again you don't apply the same logic to black and white in your analysis.
This is a good example of why we never use engine eval while analyzing openings. Right as we look at the engine evaluation we loose a lot of our own understanding of the position. The ruy lopez and the g3 scandinavian are two positions that play nothing alike.
The ruy lopez is a theory heavy opening with good winning chances for both sides. In this opening, a +0.1 lead may proove to be decisive because of the nature of the opening.
In the g3 scandinavian however, there are almost no theory, the position is far from sharp, and most moves will keep black in the game. In these types of positions a +0.1 lead is nothing, and the positions can probably be considered equal in human terms.
As I said in my comment earlier, all this line has is the surprise factor, and there is nothing objectively wrong with it. The only problem is that compadre_j claim that black is close to loosing after move 4.
g3 is not +0.1, it's +0.2 by leela, and she's conservative usually. The very most objectively sound openings for white are on par with this line in terms of their eval.
Both the d and e files are partially open here, combined with b4 pressuring c6 and undermining the diagonal it's not going to play like a slow catalan or something - it'll be much more like a closed sicilian where the center has opened up, but really a better version of it for white, because white has more initiative and is safer than in those lines. Or maybe the Meisis variation of e4/e5. Some of the most tactical variations in the closed sicilian are in the Korchnoi or related lines where you get g3 with this partially open center... these games are often about pins of all kinds - both from bishops and rooks, lots of pressure in the center with rooks occupying there, discoveries on the long diagonal, etc.. Often the queens are susceptible to harassment or pins. It's not going to be a space-occupying slow game. Probably will devolve into a tactical game after 6-8 moves or so.
In this position Bg4 is like +0.5 immediately and it's the most played move. How does a swing like that happen in such a slow opening, in response to such a natural move? There are going to be opportunities to capitalize on the opponents mistakes in these lines.
I almost considered playing this line but I like the pseudo-italian line I'm playing, however this line looks quite good, probably would be rank 2 on my list of moves to play against Qa5.
4.g3 is the definition of a meek move against 3...Qa5.
In the following game a World Champion was lucky to escape a totally lost position due to the opponent's time pressure. The computer disapproves 6.Nge2 already, but Black has zero problems against other moves as well.
Well, once again, just posting a 2700ish game played by a world champion, at that level... it fails to address the main argument for playing g3, i.e. that black is alot more liable to play this line incorrectly compared with some other typical Scandi with typical Scandi patterns. Of course that's not going to hold true at 2700ish level. But even then, obviously the world champion saw some reason to play it. You've picked just one specific game to look at but there are many top level games here, white has a positive winrate and it's not like white is drawing all the time. Just a very anecdotal argument / very little meat to your argument.
If a player were to go by your philosophy and play the main lines of the Scandi - they'd be entering lines where, despite the eval, black has a better winrate than white most of the time. Lines the Scandi player knows exactly how to play, and which white very rarely faces. I don't think this is a smart way to play chess, it plays right into blacks hands and justifies the reason he played the Scandi to begin with... I really have no desire to play like this.
It's easy for low level rated player heck even good for high level blitz or maybe even rapid. Yet the forum claims its bad It's strength are it's simple theory and simple idea of early queen attack kinda thing Weaknesses are 1 simple theory white can learn it's theory not in depth in 20mins 2 as some one suggested in the convo that they studied scandi nice I am sure they realise white has a lot of counter play any move preparing for b4 is blocked by c6 yes but if you blunder or make inaccuracies in opening and development then it sucks for you Conclusions stop reading this a study the opening of you want to i recommend using analysis feature or course idk if there's a book for scandi . Oppionon all opening sucks only play bird opening , Dutch defence, scillian defence All of them have courses and books get them Final conclusion get of the forum play anything that makes you opponent uncomfortable
I want to say few things.
1) I want to respond to Mister comment.
I don’t know what account you checked, but I want you to know that I play on multiple chess sites and the win rate I have is accurate.
2) I want to respond to Mister other comment.
The moves I showed are not strange or weird.
They are considered main line theory for g3 line.
In the Scandy, The e4 square becomes weak.
After the opening moves:
1.e4 d5
2. exd5 Qxd5
You can see the Black pawn which normally defends the e4 square (d5 pawn) has been traded off.
This makes the e4 square a vulnerable square!
The g3 line plans to over attack it and use it as an outpost/pivoting square.
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For the above reason, Scandy players aim to defend the e4 square with pieces.
- Nf6 is obvious
- Bf5 is obvious - it is also a main line
- Bg4 is considered the high level sophisticated way to defend e4 square. Black is planning to snake around.
The Big difference between Bf5 or Bg4 can be seen below:
The below is with Bf5
The below is with Bg4
Black is trying to defend e4 square and we can see both bishop moves ultimately do that function. The question is whether or not Black should go directly to f5 and defend e4 or if Black should try to go the long way around.
‘Black has no intention of trading off his bishop for knight.
‘Black intentions with Bg4 are to annoy and provoke white into over extending.
Scandy players believe by playing Bf5 directly. It defends e4, but it doesn’t cause any weakness in white position.
Bg4 is the sophisticated way to defend e4 and try to annoy white into playing h3 + g4 which would create dark square weakness around king!
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In fact, White is not suppose to play g4!
White is supposed to play only h3 and hold g4 for later time.
The move g4 is to weakening and it gives Black counter play.
‘Usually, Strong Black players will play Bg6 on their own later in game.
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‘Everything Ibrust said is also pretty accurate.
‘White attacks the entire diagonal and in addition white uses e4 as outpost to help stage attacks.
‘Black is on defense the whole game which is why I say the Qa5 line is losing.
Engines can hold draw playing Black because they have crazy good engine defense, but most humans get crushed.
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The Qd8 line was losing same way, until this new line came out.
‘I am little nerves by it.
I’m going to have to change something - maybe my move order
Lol, I play the Modern Scandi as my main counter to 1.e4 and score relatively well against 2000 rated opposition. Maybe you just don't understand chess well enough to properly utilize its main ideas.