Scandi defensive is bad

In the Qa5 line, I personally do not believe in the Bg4 move you showed.

I think most scandinavian players will go for the standard Bf5 move instead and go for the standard scandinavian principles. Trade off the light squared bishop for anything, and rebuild the light squares.

You are simply ignoring BASIC OPENING PRINCIPLES in your wannabe-analysis.

Ideally, Black would love to grab some central space without falling way back in development.

So, an early ...e5 is not an option against 4.d4, or 4.Nf3 5.dxe5 against the former, or 5.Bc4 against the latter will make Black regret his experiment.

4...e5 is also bad against 5.Bc4 (6.Nf3! and an eventual Ng5 is already a big problem).

Hardly the case after the meek 4.g3, which DOES NOT PUT any direct control over the e5 square: Black has the luxury of doing just that without any sort of "punishment", and enjoy a very healthy position.

This is objectively the case, and stuff like an early ...Bf5 and/or ...Bg4 simply shows that Black is a guy who moves on autopilot.

See what an objective kibitzer says:

But hey, feel free to support your illusion. Just don't expect someone who understands a couple of things about chess to agree with you.

This defence, quite frankly, is an insulting move! It mocks White's advantage of the first move. In my club it is one of the forbidden defences to 1 e4. If you play it in a rated game in my club, you get a verbal warning. Do it again, a written one. Third time, you are expelled from the club. If you play it in a league match, you are thrown off the team. Mic drop.

Beautiful!

Post #41 & Post #42 are showing exactly why the Qa5 Scandy is getting crushed!

Post #41 is showing how HUMANS play as Black.

Scandy Books get published teaching people how to play Black like that!

Post #42 is showing how ENGINES play as Black.

Engines often don’t approve of how Humans play the line, but Engines don’t publish books explaining why they are playing their moves so others can understand.

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Only thing which needs to be fixed is White moves on Post #41 & #42

Let me comment on Post #41 first:

When Black develops the Light Square Bishop, It leaves b7 pawn unguarded.

White often responses to the Bishop move by playing the pawn move b4 to gain space.

White has to b4 before Black moves E pawn because when Black moves E pawn the b4 square is guarded by Dark Bishop on f8.

White doesn’t want the Bishop capturing.

White wants Queen to capture so it can win b7 pawn such as below:

Black best move is to run with Queen and not take the b4 pawn.

Black plays it like above majority of the time.

We would clearly say:

- White has Queen Side Space Advantage

- White is the one Attacking

- White plan is very clear on what he will do to further break down Black Position

Now, you tell me what does Black have in this position?

What plan does Black have other vs. losing?

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Post #42

You didn’t show the moves on how you reached the above position.

Keep in mind, if Black changes moves, White can and often should change moves as well!

You can’t play a different set of moves for Black.

Than play the same moves for White expecting an equal position.

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The only time Black can play e5 is on move 6 - No other time!

The move order White does is very specific!

All moves in chess are specific as far as that goes - you can’t just change moves for 1 side thinking other side will do nothing.

The move 6.Nge2 is my preferred move in this specific line, but most people play 6.Nf3 because Black hasn’t committed the E pawn to spot.

6…e5 is supposed to be punishing white for playing Nge2 vs. Nf3 so this is only time it can be played.

If your playing e5 sooner vs. move 6, You are SHOWING WHITE the move. You are telegraphing your move and White should respond according!

Why should white play Nge2 in your position?

How are you reaching that position?

Every move as function and purpose.

Firstly, it's very ironic listening to a person who plays the Smith Morra against the Sicilian give a lecture on adhering to opening principles, criticizing the objective viability of a line that's objectively on par with the Ruy Lopez. Anyway...

Black can play moves other than Ne2... that's just one way of playing, there are pros and cons to it... your example plays e5 before Ne2 is even played. Black could respond to that with other moves such as d3 and be doing quite well objectively. There's not really a viable opportunity for b4 in this line after Ne2, so maybe it makes sense to go for something else. For a better example you should delay e5 one move.

Anyway, in your "chess analysis" here, i.e. an autopilot regurgitation of the engine refutation, you failed to consider the critical fact that a mere 3% of 2200+ Scandi players play the move e5 in the position you posted. i.e. this is not a mere matter of the players auto-piiloting, they do not recognize the pattern. Why? Probably because e5 is not a typical Scandi pattern. Which, you know, has been the entire point all along. You see... when smart chess players analyze a chess game they don't just merely look at the engine and repeat what it says. Try expanding your mind a bit.

Furthermore... the engine you're using is obviously not a good one, leela considers that line +0.06, it isn't dead zeros. But with d3 instead it's like +0.22. But it doesn't matter because you probably will never see e5 there anyway.

In most cases what you'll actually be facing is either c6 or Nc6 -

I don't fault the move Ne2 after e5 either though, because for black to maintain that engine eval he must play a very sharp continuation, and this is just never gonna happen OTB. But there are many other options for white as well. One of the advantages of playing an odd line like this is the opportunities for finding novelties.. when you just post the engine line and end your analysis there... you really miss the entire point. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly but it just doesn't sink in, apparently you just aren't mentally ready / willing to contend with the full picture. You're free to remain in your little bubble though, just don't try to pull me in.

Move order does not matter so much. It can be either 4.g3?! e5 5.Bg2 Nf6 6.Nge2 Bd6, or 4.g3?! Nf6 5.Bg2 e5 etc.

The move ...c6 would probably be played at some time, e.g. after d2-d3 or d2-d4 when Bd2 can become an annoyance, but however it is NOT a priority, as without an early d2-d4 the Queen at a5 is unlikely to get trapped, or effectively attacked- rapid development of the kingside is.

So, my dear friend, post #42 actually shows that you are a patzer who thinks that he is the master of the known universe.

There are just few answers to 3...Qa5 which may put some problems for Black:

4.d4, 4.Nf3, 4.Bc4 anbd 4.b4. The latter is objectively a second rate move, but it does require from Black to defend accurately for quite a few moves. And with "best play" the outcome is equality, so it isn't such a bad move, after all.

Your 4.g3 is nothing, because it is slow and does not put any pressure on Black's position.

Ah, yes... The "obviously not good" engine is the clear winner of TCEC Championships since 4+ years ago. It used a mainstream AMD CPU and 14 threads.

It is officially built from git and everyone can get it, all he has to do is looking if they are any regressions after the last code has been inserted (numbers in red).

https://abrok.eu/stockfish/

Leela needs an expensive RTX videocard to operate well- the CPU version is awfully slow, and in any case both versions are inferior to Stockfish.

And of course it is common sense that moves like ...e5, ...Nf6, ...Bd6 and ...0-0 are a hundred percent human moves which can be made by anyone who has put a couple of minutes thinking time in.

The more you post, the more amusing you get. Congratulations!

Maze, I can’t believe what your saying.

Honestly, I don’t think you truly believe your own words.

“Move Order does not matter so much”

Of course, Move Orders matter!

The G3 Line I am showing isn’t a London or a System Opening where White can play what ever!

The G3 Line is a Top Tier Opening against the Scandy which has plans/ideas and depending on what Black does adapts and changes it’s plan.

- Each Move has function

- Each Move has reason on why it is played

Changing a Single Move can change everything in a chess position. It is pretty crazy to hear you a person with a respectable chess rating say Move Orders don’t matter so much!

Who are you trying to fool here other than yourself?

Every Single moves has a function!

Move 1 - White aims to control center with pawn and open up development

Black responses by attacking White e4 pawn with d5.

Move 2 - White exchanges center pawns and the exchange of pawns makes the e4 square more vulnerable. White can try to gain control of the e4 square later.

Black recaptures the D pawn so they are not a pawn down

Move 3 - White attacks the vulnerable Light Squares mainly (e4 square). White gains a tempo at Black expense

Black plays Qa5 to keep the Queen developed and move away from Knight attack.

Move 4 - White plays g3 with the idea of playing Bg2 to further gain control of the Light Squares.

Black plays Nf6 which is a sensible move trying to fight for Light Squares as well. Black doesn’t want White to have Light Squares uncontested!

Move 5 - Bg2 - White follows thru with there plan of adding more attacker to Light Squares.

Black plays c6 to blunt Bishop scope and add another attacker to Light Squares.

- Every Move Explained!

- Every Move with Logical Reason!

Now if you change 1 move - it changes everything!

So the move order does matter!

This g3 line seems to offer Black relatively simple choices to reach a playable position.

He'll get his queen bishop out, pawn on c6, knights on f6 and d7, and king bishop on either g6, e7, or d6. e-pawn on e6 or e5, depending. Queen will probably find her way back to c7 and go from there.

Then the opening issues are pretty much done. An imbalanced but equal starting point for the rest of the game. Whoever wins/loses from that point on will do so because of middle-game or endgame decisions, not due to the opening itself ...

The above position is entirely different vs. other position I showed!

Previously, White was playing moves to attack Light Squares and Black was playing moves to offset White attack on Light Squares!

Did you see it?

White Knight is being offset by Black Knight.

White Bishop is being mildly offset by Black C pawn.

Do you see it?

They are fighting for control of Light Squares!

All the moves are revolving around trying to get 1 up on the opponent in controlling the Light Squares.

In the below position everything changes:

Is Black offsetting White control of Light Squares?

No! Black isn’t fighting for Light Squares at all!

Black is making a play for Dark Squares.

Do you see it?

If White plays the same way as White did before, The position will become equal!

Why? Because previously all of White moves were in controlling Light Squares. Black is planning to control Dark Squares in this position!

What happens if White controls all Light Squares and Black controls all Dark Squares?

The position becomes equal because a chess board is filled with Half Light Squares & Half Dark Squares!

If you own half the board and your opponent owns half the board, your position is equal.

You can’t make head way really!

So in order for white to try and win and have an advantage he can not allow Black to own all Dark Squares!

WHITE SEES Black aiming for Dark Squares with E5 moves. White can try to contest it!

- What does Nge2 do? It reinforces a Knight attacking Light Squares so it is a Light Square attacking move!

- What does Nf3 do? It attacks Dark Squares!

Against a move like E5 - White can try to play a move like Nf3 instead of Nge2.

The only tricky part is when should White play Nf3!

White has to be careful with the timing!

White doesn’t want Black to push pawn to e4 and chase Knight away for example.

Here is a top tier game showcasing the line:

White had 1 inaccuracy + 1 mistake

Black had 3 inaccuracies

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Despite White mistake, he still was able to get a draw!

After Black move 9…Be7, White has slight advantage of 0.30.

White is pushing for win right out the gate!

Black is only playing defense!

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What people fail to realize is White had an advantage and at certain point was winning by full pawn for at least 25 moves in this game!

White got a grip in the opening with small nagging edge and white kept that grip thru the opening well into middle game.

White slip up near the start of the end game and if white didn’t slip up. He would of won!

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Everything I said shown to you by 2700 players!

White play it the exact same why I been telling you.

White had all the domination

Black was huddled up in a passive fatal position waiting for white to deliver the finishing blow!

I’m trying to tell you people that Black above plan isn’t stellar!

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Keep telling yourself the Qa5 Scandy is good, your not hurting my feelings.

I, personally, love Scandy players!

They are Chess Freebies!

What really baffles me is how a group of people can convince themselves that a line which is bad is good. Than have the nerve to try and convince others it’s good!

It’s kind of sick really!

I must be missing something!

what is the appeal here?

Maybe, I need to flip the board around to see the greatness of the Scandy!

I’m not seeing it.

The Grand Black plan is hiding from me it seems.

Why does Queen go to a5?

Is their a deeper line of reasoning I am not appreciating?

Black position looks like Caro Kan, but Queen seems to be all over place.

Is the Scandy an inferior Caro Kan with the Queen losing tempos for Black unnecessarily?

Thats what it is looking like now that I look at the position from Black point of view.

As shocking as it is, the conclusion is that either you don't know what a move order is, or you just have to say something when you have nothing useful to say. And the problem is that you say a lot, 99,5% of them being pure nonsense.

Here are three different move orders, all leading to the same position.

I'm mostly going to ignore this absurd point you're making about move order not mattering, since obviously white can respond with d3 instead of Ne2 in the position you posted... although I don't think Ne2 is prohibitive there either since it's a sharp engine continuation for black that maintains near-equality, and it will never happen anyway... this e5 line occurs in 3% of games so I don't think it's even worth white radically changing his setup to deal with, but he could if he wanted to. But it looks like Compadre has already addressed this nonsense.

It's not difficult to configure leela to use your graphics card, I've already done that.

It's very telling the most you felt needed responding to in that post is its questioning of the integrity of the engine you're using. That's because, again, your point is primarily about the engine line. Your argument is extremely meaningless and irrelevant, I don't even really need you here, I could just ask Leela or Stockfish what they think - you aren't really adding anything.

- what makes a neural net more useful than a traditional engine for our purposes is really the fact that they work in a way that's more intuitive and less based on calculation. They don't need to search as deep, instead they're using a set of weights to make decisions which is like a very refined chess intuition. If you were using Leela it would strengthen your point, whether leela is 50 elo higher or lower than stockfish under some specific set of CPU and GPU configurations defined in some tournament... is completely irrelevant. The problem with your point remains that it is irrelevant in a human chess conversation. The go-to engine for doing analysis these days should be a neural net engine.

The human elements were what the vast majority of that post was about and you yet again ignored the entire thing. All you felt the need to do was point out that your engine is winning some tournament lately. It's a useless argument, and that should be obvious.

Well at this point you're just denying the statistics. e5 is played in 3% of 2200+ games in that position, that's the bottom line, you have no argument here. Humans are not playing the moves. And even if they did, again, no one forces black to play Ne2 in that position... already explained this... d3 there is +0.22, it is not "just a game of chess", the game has not basically equalized. You have no point here.

I think you're correct that this will reach an early middlegame before it gets interesting. But your analysis stops short.

Firstly, the position will be between +0.15-+0.25 depending on how it plays out... black has not equalized, it isn't "just a game of chess" yet. The first 4-6 moves are kind of typical, however, with moves such as b4 / Rb1 undermining c6 the diagonal / b file will open. We also have both center being files partially open... It's just not going to remain a boring positional game after like 4-6 moves. There will be pins and tactics arising, and the game gets interesting.

Middlegames are characterized by the opening.... alot of times when people ask "how do I get better at tactics" I tell them to start by learning the opening, because they'll get consistency in middlegame tactical patterns they run into.

A Scandi player is going to play the middlegames of your typical Scandi lines well. The patterns are consistent... g3 here is a middlegame with patterns that are different than a typical Scandi. That is very valuable when the main proposition for playing the Scandi is blacks familiarity advantage... g3 reminds me more of a closed sicilian. This is really the main argument for playing the line.

Impressive to see a 2600 do so well against an almost 2800. The only thing I would add to this point is I don't feel we're doing a line like this justice when we cite high level games, because I expect 2700s to play even rare lines like this well. I don't expect 2000 rated players to do the same. But what that game does show is that the line remains strong even against a great player.

Just glancing at it, I'm thinking Black might find it smoother to nip some of those b-pawn / b-file issues before they deepen, with an early ...a6.

Something like this, for example:

Also, pins, tactics, and maneuvering are elements that Scandinavian players are usually hoping to see on the board - hence why they chose to play ...d5 on move 1. They tend to like these sort of bounce-around, double-edged positions.

So I'd say we've got a win-win situation for both White and Black here - each getting something that they're looking for.

Scndinavian not bad at all,unless if you know how to play it

With a6 it's an interesting game. At least they're different tactics than what black will normally see. Are there Scandi positions you think don't give black any opportunity for tactics? What lines do you prefer against the Scandi? I think I'd find it too boring / not testing enough to forego undermining c6 here.

Some of the Scandi main lines look good to me for black - as far as winrates, and there are alot of obscure, niche moves / positions that can arise. So in this situation what I want is mainly to equalize familiarity, and I think g3 does this well... that said I am playing a more typical Scandi line... but still not a main line. There are tactics that arise in this line, though white seems to have most of them. But I may try both and see how they do. Trouble is not enough people play the Scandi for me to really test these lines.

a6 is a good move for black at the right time and in the right position.

That looks like a fun line for White - he's calling most of the shots. I'd probably play ...Bf5 as Black there, instead of ...Bg4, but the ideas still look basically the same.

I don't play 1.e4 these days, so I can't say either way what I would play as White. I do still feel that Black can hold for a draw against any line White throws his way, though, if he plays accurately (we've talked about the Scandinavian in another thread) ... I don't consider it a defense that loses by force, by any means.

But I agree that White seems to be in the driver's seat for many of these lines. If White knows what he's doing, Black's best play is perhaps to simply "weather the storm" accurately, until the dust clears ...