my move is 15. Be2, as given by Negi as an improvement over f4
Sicilian defense: Scheveningen variation with a6
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Don't think it matters too much. Looks like a small edge to white.
Optimissed wrote:
Don't think it matters too much. Looks like a small edge to white.
No actually there is quite a difference in that in some lines White would like to retreat the Bishop to e3 to attack some weak squares on the queenside, particularly b6 if Black castles long. With Be2 White stays flexible and can still play or omit f4 depending on how Black plays. Also important to note is that Be2 is a useful move that will be good to have played no matter what Black does. Also, I think a “small edge to White” underestimates the danger Black is in.
I don't play these lines but as black I'd be thinking about leaving the king in the centre as long as I could. I don't like black's position but I think black can probably hold, although it will be harder to play black. In particular, white's k position is very solid and black can't get much activity against it. Black will have to play b5 I think. Otherwise he'll be ground down. I think Be2 is slightly better than f4 and certainly they're the candidate moves. I meant that I don't think the selection of Be2 will necessarily change the result.
I actually think black's play is rubbish compared with what I play, which is to transpose into a Kan, normally, and if 0-0-0 then b5 quickly and usually black is a little better because I haven't moved my d pawn from d7.
As black here, I would be looking to play b5 and Nh5 .... if Be3 then maybe g6.
interesting, you play the O'Kelly with Black right? Isn't it just not good after 3.c3, since White gets a tempo-up Alapin?
FizzyBand wrote:
interesting, you play the O'Kelly with Black right? Isn't it just not good after 3.c3, since White gets a tempo-up Alapin?
I answered that before. It's fine with ...d5. I don't play Bg4 so that saves a move and I prefer the bishop on d7 or b7 in any case. a6 is normally played but just a bit later .... say move eight, nine or so.
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
15... O-O-O
King in the middle is tempting and the more common continuation according to the chessbase database - Black attacks on the queenside with moves like b5, Rc8 or even Rb8 reminiscent of the Chinese dragon. However the practical results leave something to be desired, even though we're getting into a very small sample of results now. White gets a passed pawn on the h-file and the position of black's king seems dangerous. Though it may work really well against lower rated player if studied well I would rather not be paranoid about losing quickly here. I will choose the slightly more awkward queenside castle.
Interesting. This move is the exact reason I play Be2 and delay/omit f4. My move is 16.h5
Tbh, I can't see why black would voluntarily indulge in such a variation unless he were about the World's strongest GM who was having a bet with himself.
Jul 28, 2020
0
#50
Optimissed wrote:
Tbh, I can't see why black would voluntarily indulge in such a variation unless he were about the World's strongest GM who was having a bet with himself.
That was basically the point we made 2 pages ago 
17. Be3 and now Negi evaluates the position as better for White (one bar under the plus).
18. f4
I fully agree with my opponent here that the Scheveningen, while suboptimal in my opinion, is significantly better than the O’Kelly, which is just a trash line where Black hopes White plays d4 on autopilot. Black just gets an uncomfortable hedgehog after c4 or a Alapin where they wasted a move on a6 after c3.
Jul 28, 2020
0
#53
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
Black is doing fine, it's such a nice and stable position but with real chances for him for a win. He must still be careful but for the most part his patience and careful manouvering have paid off and the results in the database reflect that. Negi will relinquish the h-pawn and black gets lots of play on the kingside. As is to be expected after the grandmaster repertoire treatment white is still better but only just.
Translation: Black is almost strategically lost, but if White blunders Black might win!
Put another way: White is playing for 2 results; Black is praying for a draw.
There is exactly 1 game in the database played from the current position at the master level (between 2 ~2400-level masters). That game ended in a draw due to a blunder by White on move 23. Read that carefully: White blundered into a draw. If you continue following that game, do not expect to see the same result. There is a reason that there are very few master games in this line.
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
Of course it has to be understand that in the Grandmaster Repertoire books the symbol key for one bar under the plus is JUST "white is better", it's NOT "white is clearly better" like it usually is. Negi puts the + and bar symbol right through his books - you'd be hard pressed to find any opening where he hasn't put it in there. The plus over the bar is still clearly a draw or as in the case of a dynamic opening like the Scheveningen chances for both sides.
The GR series simplified their terminology; but that doesn't change the meaning. You are confusing +/= with +/-. +/= (aka "White has an edge") typically means White has an easier position to play, but with correct play Black can still hold. +/- typically means White should win with correct play. +- means White is winning.
The current position is very close to +- territory already. But, I'm sure you know better than 4 GMs and 4 3000+-level engines that have checked these lines.
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
You didn't make any point 2 pages ago, you don't have a monkies about this position and are here for the trolling.
Yes, I'm here to see you continue to troll. It is rather amusing except when you jump full on with rude ad hominems ....
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
Optimissed well then I suggest you educate yourself on the basics of chess because there is absolutely nothing about this position that could lead anyone with a sound grasp of the very basics to think that either at first glance or after a while looking at it. This used to be the mainline at the absolute elite for decades, yes it is has fallen from those heights it used to be but obviously not for any reason you would understand if you spent the rest of your your life studying it.
It has fallen out of favor for 1 reason: The Keres Attack - which has been pointed out over and over, and over again. The fact that you do not realize how bad your position is right now demonstrates that you should take your own advice.
FizzyBand wrote:
17. Be3 and now Negi evaluates the position as better for White (one bar under the plus).
I wanted to retain attacking flexibility for black by playing b5 and Nh5, possibly intending g6 if feasible and leaving the king in the centre. I don't have access to any databases or engine so what did you think about that plan? I'm not saying it's right but I would prefer to go down fighting than to be slowly throttled.
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
Optimissed well then I suggest you educate yourself on the basics of chess because there is absolutely nothing about this position that could lead anyone with a sound grasp of the very basics to think that either at first glance or after a while looking at it. This used to be the mainline at the absolute elite for decades, yes it is has fallen from those heights it used to be but obviously not for any reason you would understand if you spent the rest of your your life studying it. Black is far better by any measure than your shi.tty O' Kelly where let's face it the real point is basically just hoping white doesn't know the theory properly and to catch him out.
Let's get this straight because I'm slightly confused. You're saying that PawnTsunami is trolling. You're not trolling even though you're almost certainly a weaker player than me and yet you make personal attacks.
I don't really need to sound clever. However I was being slightly sarcastic if it's any help.
You seem rather angry and for a long time I've thought that you, let's say, have problems.
I'm commenting on this game but not to you, so get that through your stupid, bad mannered, trollish skull.
Fizzyband, I just played a 10 min blitz game and it turned out to be a c3 Sicilian. My opponent played into a line that I knew to be better for black ... the one with c4, so it wasn't much of a test although I forgot all my analysis, played badly and nearly lost on time.
Jul 28, 2020
0
#59
Uhohspaghettio1 wrote:
punter99 wrote:
I doubt that Black can be fine here. Stockfish gives White +2.50
No it doesn't, leave it run for a bit. If it shows it it's a complete mistake, an engine error. Don't you think Negi would have seen that? How can you even look at the position and say that - where's the win? I'm a bit surprised you would say this given your really high blitz rating.
Please keep in mind we are playing without computer evaluations here, so I can't go to them and discuss them.
Being fully transparent - one of the databases I am using shows up an evaluation in a way that I on rare occasions accidentally saw it before I was able to hide it. It's 0.7-0.8 for this line which is completely typical for double-edged openings. You can only see one evaluation at a time so it couldn't be compared in any way. In no way has this ever or could ever realistically affect anything I have played or will play. That is a proper evaluation that has been allowed to run for a long time.
Well, Negi's book is already some years old but I guess his eval is also quite optimistic about White's chances. I see no reason not to trust Stockfish 11 at depth 42.
Doesn't mean that there is a straight forward win for White and of course in a human game Black always has some chances but it looks difficult. The rook is a bit misplaced on h7, the dark squares around Black's king are weakened and I am not sure about Black's counterplay. Normally Black has some queenside attack or pawn breaks in the center but both doesn't make much sense here.
Let's see how your game continues.
14. Kb1