So, I call St. George's supermodern fortress any opening where black plays a6, d6 and g6 in any order.
St. George's Supermodern Fortress
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May 25, 2011
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#2
May 26, 2011
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#3
Catalyst_Kh wrote:
Are you sure about a6? If i remember correctly, both modern and hedgehog-like structures have some lines, where a6 should be played later, because early a6 can lead to inferior position due early waste of tempo, which is very required by black for other moves.
Taras: Rybka on chessok gives quite good evaluations for a6 vs. everything! Though against each particular 3rd move by white, some other replies might be slightly stronger. So it's kinda universally good.
May 26, 2011
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#5
Conzipe wrote:
This is actually very much like a a6 modern (1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 followed by 4... a6) which is quite a reasonable weapon for black if handled correctly but I don't see the purpose of changing the move-order as the normal one certainly looks the most flexible. I don't think it's very effective to play a6 when white has pushed hes pawn to c4.
I just like its universality and the possibility to start juth 1...a6.
May 26, 2011
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#6
Conzipe wrote:
To ask a simple question:
What is the point of a6 after white has played c2-c4?
When white has a knight on c3 the move makes more sense as black will either be able to expand with b7-b5 or provoke white to weaken hes queenside with a2-a4.
Well, I'd play 1...a6 rather on 1.e4 but even on 1.c4 it could have its usefulness cuz white will probably play Nc3 anyway.
May 26, 2011
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#7
Conzipe wrote:
To ask a simple question:
What is the point of a6 after white has played c2-c4?
When white has a knight on c3 the move makes more sense as black will either be able to expand with b7-b5 or provoke white to weaken hes queenside with a2-a4.
Because to me it either seems like you have to start playing in hippo fashion or go into a type of KID with a tempo down which is certainly something that should be avoided.
Well, I don't wanna say that this is the opening of whole 21st century but it's still quite reasonable and solid ... and might be funny if U start with 1...a6. Some arrogant opponents will dislike it to your psychological advantage.
May 26, 2011
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#8
Catalyst_Kh wrote:
Conzipe, after Rybka told Yigor it is the best one even with c4 and Nc3, how can you prove it is silly?
LoL God, save the Queen! ... or rather Rybka, save my King!
May 26, 2011
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#9
Catalyst_Kh wrote:
Conzipe, after Rybka told Yigor it is the best one even with c4 and Nc3, how can you prove it is silly?
Well, there is only 1 possibility: he beats Rybka on the regular basis, then I promise that I will listen very attentively his suggestions!
May 26, 2011
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#10
Rybka schmibka! Just look at the position. In a couple more moves we'll be in a King's Indian/Modern Defense setup but in a position where a6 may or may not make any sense.
It's not so much an opening as an opening move-order finesse.
May 26, 2011
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#11
DrSpudnik: Yeah, I got it, whatever someone says U about chess, U'll just remain skeptical. In one of my current games, it's far from being anything like regular KID/modern defense lines.
May 26, 2011
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#12
With this logic, U can also say that Najdorf is not opening cuz equivalent to other modern Sicilian openings with or without a6.
May 26, 2011
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#13
No. The Najdorf is only the Najdorf if it doesn't transpose after 5...a6, for instance, Black can still play e6 and steer toward a Scheveningen setup. Likewise, you can try to avoid 3.Bb5 in the Sicilian by starting out with 2. e6 and only later playing d6. These are transpositional finesses. The lines between openings can be a little blurry. These ideas aren't bad, but they aren't specific openings on their own.
May 26, 2011
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#14
Conzipe wrote:
Does rybka really think a6 is best?
Guess that's another argument why engines shouldn't be used in the opening! :P
Always one of best up to 1/10 of a pawn.
Tiger's Modern is pretty much a whole entire book dedicated to nothing but shouting the praises of 3...a6 in the modern.
And even Tiger says the move is junk after an early c4 by white, for exactly the reasons Conzipe's already given.
He recommends steering into a KID if willing, or into the Averbakh variation with ...g6,...d6,...Bg7,and ...e5 otherwise.
Without the real threat of ...b5, a6 still loses nothing for black early in the game, when he's not yet buried behind lagging development. But as the game progresses, even Rybka will come to see that white's threats develop faster and more harmoniously than black's will be able to, essentially down a tempo with no positional justification.
After 1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.c4 a6
Rybka gives the position +0.57 on depth 13 analysis.
The list of moves it gives as better for black includes :-
Ng7, Nc6, e5, Nf6, Nd7, Bd7, c5, Bh6, Na6, b6, e6.
So don't start saying that rybka thinks its best after c4.
With c4 it is stupid, and without it, it is basically just a worse move order of a different opening.
May 26, 2011
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#19
Badgerftw: on their official site and with deeper analysis, Rybka gives +0.29 to 3...a6 after 1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.c4, and within 1/10 of pawn from best choices!
Btw if U don't like it, just don't play it, I'm not planning to force U.
Yigor, can you show me the evidence of this please?
I'm very doubtful that the evalutation would get as low as 0.29.
Even if this is true, Clearly it is a bad move for the given reasons, and engine analysis does not give a good idea of good opening ideas, theoretical ideas should be used and a6 is pointless.
I am aware that I don't have to play it, however given that you have made a thread about it, I thought I should contribute my opinion that it isn't a very good move, and advise people to play something better.
Well, I discovered experimentally that this black's defense is very solid against everything!
It can be obtained from St. George's defense 1.e4 a6 or modern defense d6+g6. P.S. Actually, it's called Tiger's modern defense, I didn't know that while starting this topic.